Take the day pass and read this...

[edgeofentropy]

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/03/07/women_in_military/
It will disturb you(understatement)though it may not surprise you...pass it around enough and maybe we can force a change...

Comments

[kimboosan]

The NYT Magazine had a similar article last week. I hope this means that there is some kind of groundswell of attention to the matter.

However horrible these situations are, though, I cannot get my blood boiling. Humans are base animals and it is pure folly to think that if you put men and women into situations that we have not had 500 years to assimilate to that they will react as civilized creatures. They won't. WTF I wonder does the military think, that a male-dominated culture of arguably thousands of years of history is suddenly going to reduce down into "Free to be You and Me" over the course of one generation? I fault the military for not heading these situations off at the pass through education and psychological testing...not to mention, not giving women the POWER to challange the status quo without getting demoted.

And what bothers me most of all is that people are going to make conclusions about women in combat based on paltry -- that is, NO -- evidence. This is really the first generation of women to share combat zone duty to the same degree as their male counterparts. What we know about women in these conditions amounts to squat.

Bah.

:::::KBS

[urbanknight]

Kimboosan echoes my sentiments exactly, I served 5 years under fairly harsh conditions. and honestly other then banging them the last thing i wanted to deal with in any case was the so called "female soldier" I have no problem with them in a support role, or completely segregated from men, but in a line combat unit uh fucking uh. let me just say from experience, it completely destroyes morale, and all the guys the female soldier isn't fucking are going to hate the one she is.. come on, someone is out in a foreign land, thousands of miles aways from their loved ones while private Joe is fucking the lieutenant.

Sucks.

dont even get me started on the differing standards for males and females in the armed forces, or the fact that female soldiers essentially rule the roost with exceptions and special privileges.

Rape is never excusable,

But they shouldn't be there to begin with. Its just bad buisness and believe you me I have met some motherfucking badass chicks who I wouldnt want to tangle with, but not watching my back in my fucking foxhole.

[edgeofentropy]

But say in Iraq or the 'stan where there is no clear line, how do you differentiate the "support" from the "line combat". Cause the AK is not...seems to me though, I shouldn't have to worry about what my fellow soldiers would do to me when I've got a bunch of other folk that want to do the same and worse...put on the other shoe, you're the straight in the gay army and command is not sure how or if they will deal with you and what you represent...What would you do?

[urbanknight]

Honestly I have a hard time thinking that way, since I never had to worry about it. Truthfully though, I tend to err on the side of the fact that although stupid, people are inherently "good" and the exceptions to that should be severely punished, but uhm we don't even do that stateside. Hell we just send them to get raped in prison briefly and then let them loose on society again..

[edgeofentropy]

My perception is sorta colored(yep that is a pun)by the fact that what is being said about women in combat is much the same as was said about the blacks. Some differences, to be sure, but the same in the end. Not smart enough, stable enough, trustworthy enough to use in combat. Just fine in support roles though. And it was right up until Vietnam until that changed...

[urbanknight]

Har har, I guess I wasn't in the service to experience that, I guess its mainly from what I can attest to personally experiencing. Ugh sorry bro, didn't mean to start a fire under your topic (sigh)

[edgeofentropy]

no apologies needed, that was kinda the point, if we don't discuss these things how will we get over them. I'm glad you chimed in and that's kinda the point about things like this, to get us talking, to find out anothers perspective and be able to discuss it...hell of a lot more interesting than work wouldn't you say?

[urbanknight]

Yeah well I tend to forget myself from time to time not to mention I forget that honestly most people have no idea the level of confusion going on over there, I still keep in touch with some of my friends in the service and most of them know even less about what's going on then civilians stateside, hell all they know is things keep getting worse

[kimboosan]

I respect your opinion on that, but only because it is based on a real world experience and not some damn sexist theory.

That said, I will posit to you the same argument that I gave my brother concerning female rabbis: He isn't against a woman being a rabbi, but he doesn't think they make good ones. My reply, paraphrased for this dialogue:
Men have had thousands of years to refine and define what a "soldier" is; all training is geared to the male mentality; all leadership is male; the entire organization is saturated with the "male experience." That isn't a bad thing, because it arguably works. However you cannot throw women into that mix and expect ANYTHING to work: men, women, training, culture.

When we have at least (at least!!) 100 years of a tradition of female soldiers, with the same responsibilities and risks as male soldiers, then you might have some leeway to say whether women are "built" for it. (I told my brother to ask me about female rabbis when we have 2,000 years of a female rabbinic tradition...so you see where I'm going with this...)

For that reason, they SHOULD be there to begin with. The only way to adapt the system to a new paradigm is to ADAPT THE SYSTEM TO A NEW PARADIGM. Wishful thinking won't do it, and wishing things would 'just be the way they were' won't do it either. Stuff like differing standards and quotas and etc. etc. must be tried, if only to prove that they don't work.

The fact that you believe female soldiers "rule the roost" with exceptions and special priveleges while female soldiers feel they are being persecuted and punished for standing up for their basic rights means something, damnit.

It means change.

People hate that most of all.

[urbanknight]

That is very profound and honestly? If the standard were exactly the same for both male and females I think there would be a much higher opinion of female soldiers in the military. As far as ruling the roost, example: a male soldier deployed gets a shower in the field maybe every 2-3 weeks depending on their distance from rear echelons , a female? Every 3 days. For hygenic reasons.. Sounds like no big deal right? Wrong. In combat zones a shower is such a damn luxury. And when 50 odd males get to watch the females skate to the rear every 3 days it breeds division and resentment. Similar situations exist in everything from physical training standards to the wear and appearance of the uniform. It is a critical part of unit cohesion that you may not like the guy next to you, but he us your best friend when the fit hits the shan, because you know he is a well trained soldier that can pull their weight in a crisis.

I guess its mainly if the army expects less of a female soldier, then why should a male soldier think differently?

[kimboosan]

I agree with you completely. I'm not one to stand in judgement on whether some standards should be different for men/women or not. However, despite my lack of credentials, I fail to see why showering should be one of those standards.

(Not to gross you out, but: ) Sure, being on the rag can get somewhat messy, you better believe it. However there workarounds; for instance, I know for a fact that those cleaner-baby wipies work fabulously for in-between-shower, er, "spills" shall we say.

For the record, I think your main point is well taken: if the army expects less of a female soldier, then why should a male soldier think differently?

My point is that the jury is still out on what SHOULD be expected of a female soldier. And, alas, will be out for a while.

Thanks for the intelligent dialogue. It is too easy to resort to bad behavior when it comes to topics like this...yeah, even me! LOL!

[urbanknight]

Pssht if I lost my cool the first time anyone questioned my opinion shit, I wouldn't have any room to talk about anything. And besides frankly? Soldiers have been pissed on for being the most ghastly morally deficant creatures since Vietnam, and honestly although I hurt inside when I have heard horror stories of vets returning home to a fickle and hateful America that doesn't seem to realize that better men then 90% of civilians I have met gladly have fought to the death, so Americans would be able to express their vile opinions about our character. People can say what they want about the bad apples in any social group, not many can count a fraction of the genuine heroes I have personally met, and to this day would drop anything and everything to help out someone whom they considered a friend. Honor, something sorely lacking in todays world.