Typographical Nudity
Ah, the old serif vs. sans-serif argument. I just had it with my cousin Otto.
[disclaimer: LARGE wall of text below. Read only if you're a nut about print, or have an unexplained infatuation with typography. Also lewd references to death and constant half-baked fun ad-hominem attacks are always present in arguments between Otto and I. :D ]
Eagle: Me
INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Otto
Read more behind this cut
7:51:24 PM Eagle: this time sans retards who think shitty dafont display fonts automatically make you creative
7:51:32 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: kowl
7:51:48 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Make sure you use sans-serif fonts.
7:51:52 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: >___________________>
7:52:00 PM Eagle: I'll kill you <<
7:52:19 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Everyone hates serfis, I don't understand YOUR fascination as a print student
7:53:56 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: ]]
7:55:08 PM Eagle: print =/= web, I'm sorry :]
7:55:41 PM Eagle: and the research supports my position, and has for quite some time; for large blocks of text, serif typefaces are easier to read than sans-serif type faces
7:56:06 PM Eagle: this will differ between people of course, there are always outliers.
7:56:36 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: nurr, because reading a screen with a paragraph is so much different than reading a book with a paragraph
7:56:56 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: research can suck my ass in this case. print makers tend to be old-fashioned
7:57:05 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: they probably pooled old people
7:57:09 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: and surveyed them
7:57:11 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: like usually
7:57:14 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: usual*
7:57:44 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: also please refrain from using this emote ever again ---> :]
7:57:47 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: it's so awful >
7:57:57 PM Eagle: :] :] :] :] :] :] :]
7:58:02 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: ew
7:58:19 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Serifs are gross and archaich.
7:58:35 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: And they waste ink, and they don't look good at all sizes
7:58:59 PM Eagle: research supports me, not you blah
7:59:09 PM Eagle: what you're saying is entirely subjective to your own personal experience
7:59:13 PM Eagle: and not people as a whole
7:59:22 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Show me current research, mister proper arguing.
7:59:33 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Current being withing the last 5 years.
7:59:52 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Historically, serifs have been preferred.
7:59:53 PM Eagle: all current design books on PRINT DESIGN
7:59:56 PM Eagle: have said this
8:00:01 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Show me.
8:00:17 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: And show me their referrences that are from 5 years ago or less.
8:00:22 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Even 10 years ago or less.
8:00:24 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: You can't.
8:01:08 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Most of the "research" you talk about use the logic that "conventionally" (!) the serifs "guide" the eyes.
8:02:36 PM Eagle: Do you know the difference between legibility and readability?
8:03:06 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: That I do
8:03:52 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: I consider extra crap on my letters to interfere with my legibility and my readability.
8:04:50 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: It's more readable with simpler characters, as well as legible.
8:09:13 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Arguing that serifs are more "readable" because they "flow" the words together is just like arguing in favor of cursive.
8:09:45 PM Eagle: that's a retarded analogy.
8:10:02 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Not really. People use the "flow" argument all of the time.
8:10:08 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: It's actually one of the main arguments.
8:10:36 PM Eagle: why? script fonts, under which any "cursive" would fall under are not comparable to actual serif typefaces.
8:11:21 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: I beg to differ. Much of where serifs are based in comes from the motions of cursive.
8:11:26 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Like tails and whatnot.
8:11:48 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: And what "handwriting" looks like, hence different instead of constant letter thicknesses.
8:13:10 PM Eagle: If you're talking about my cursive, and are trying to compare it to the likes of Garamond, you're out of your mind and you fail at drawing analogies :P
8:13:32 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: ... I'm talking cursive in general. Not SCRIPT, cursive.
8:13:55 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: As in, connecting each letter.
8:15:30 PM Eagle: cursive is script, it never will be anything else :|
8:16:23 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: IF you're oin crack.
8:16:31 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Cursive is simple, script is fancy
8:16:36 PM Eagle: It's always going to look handwritten, and it never will be set as the typeface for an entire book
8:16:49 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: You don't write in script when you write a note. You write in cursive.
8:16:54 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Cursive is a type of script.
8:17:05 PM Eagle: script means written, you tard
8:17:09 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: I'm not going by definition, I'm going by the common implication.
8:17:41 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: When you think of script you think of something fancy, when you think of cursive you think of something fancy
8:18:49 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Cursive is a STYLE of script.
8:18:58 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: You cannot argue this, it is fact.
8:19:23 PM Eagle: That's what I've been saying. Cursive is not related to serif typefaces though.
8:19:50 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Handwriting and script are closely related with cursive and handwriting.
8:19:50 PM Eagle: serif typefaces preceded them in print because cursive and script fonts cannot be set as moveable type
8:20:00 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: cursive and serifs*
8:20:01 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: ffs
8:24:55 PM Eagle: "There are arguments about exactly why, but extensive studies do show that today in our society it is easier to read an extended amount of text when it is set in a serif typeface. Perhaps it is the serifs themselves that lead the eye from one character to the next, linking the letters into words, perhaps it is the subtle thick-thin contrast in the strokes, which most sans serifs do not have. Perhaps it is the moderate ratio of x-height to cap-height(the body of the letter in relation to the height of capital letters or the ascenders), since sans serif letter-forms tend to have larger x-heights." Williams, Robin. The non-designer's type book. Berkeley: Peachpit Press, 2006.
8:25:30 PM Eagle: All of my design books reflect that above
8:25:36 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: but extensive studies do show
8:25:42 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Which studies?
8:26:08 PM Eagle: I trust she's not making shit up. <.<
8:26:33 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: I trust she's citing the same old garbage available on the web from 50 years ago.
8:26:57 PM Eagle: She is an authority in the field of typography, and her knowledge is based on what she has read and put in this book, so I chose to cite her
8:28:49 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: http://www.fontriver.com/i/maps/times_sans_serif_map.png man look how nice times looks without serifs
8:29:47 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: And, also, again with the "horizontal flow" arguement, why have vertical serifs?
8:29:51 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Like on s and c?
8:30:53 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: and on some typefaces, the letter i, t, f
8:31:35 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: capital T
8:31:49 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Capital L
8:32:00 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: lowercase y
8:32:36 PM Eagle: I probably couldn't stand looking at that sans-serif Times set as a whole book
8:33:36 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: capital Z
8:33:48 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Capital E and F
8:34:55 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: That argument (the main argument for serifs) is illogical if there are vertical serifs.
8:34:56 PM Eagle: You're talking like I don't think sans-serif fonts have their uses-- you're wrong. But as someone who, you know, specializes in print-design and who has read many design books on print design...
8:35:08 PM Eagle: I can tell you what my conclusions are with some credibility <.<
8:36:04 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: I don't recognize your credibility because I feel that your books are by and large single sided.
8:36:59 PM Eagle: and you feel that way just because you have a different viewpoint. That would be like a color-blind person trying to say that red should not be used to indicate a "stop" sign
8:37:10 PM Eagle: We don't cater to the outliers, we cater to the majority
8:37:42 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Alienation should be a fallacy in arguments. ;)
8:38:01 PM Eagle: well it's not :D
8:38:08 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Well it should be. ]]
8:38:44 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Personally, I belive that serifs are archaic. This is further empasized by computers (modern) using serif fonts nearly exclusively.
8:38:57 PM Eagle: it's completely valid. Most people like serifs in their typefaces. Fact. All books are read by people. Therefore, most books should be set in serif typefaces
8:39:16 PM Eagle: Well go buy a kindle, and set your shit in sans-serif and quit bitching :P
8:39:22 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: All is a fallacy ]]
8:39:46 PM Eagle: You disagree that all books are read by people? o_O
8:40:11 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Not all books are read. Most books are.
8:40:13 PM Eagle: if you print a book for any other purpose than for it to be read by people, then you're doing it wrong
8:40:15 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Maybe not EVERY SINGLE ONE.
8:40:52 PM Eagle: Some books are read by cats then. We have no way to gauge whether they prefer serifs or sans-serif type-faces though
8:41:04 PM Eagle: but otherwise, we're talking about books that are read by people
8:41:31 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: You're missing the point. You cannot properly gauge what people prefer unless you ask people with no knowledge of the argument.
8:41:43 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Which I can guarantee was not the case in these studies.
8:42:09 PM Eagle: I imagine they were given two books and asked "Which of these are easier to read?"
8:42:19 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: I don't.
8:42:42 PM Eagle: well they certainly weren't asked "do prefer serif typefaces or sans-serif typefaces?"
8:44:11 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Yes, but they certainly weren't given what you described.
8:44:59 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: I mean, maybe they wer given two books, sure. But there's always a large pool of partial people especially when it's involving such an obscure subject of study.
8:47:28 PM Eagle: Wait, people being partial about serifs versus sans-serifs? Most people don't even know the difference between the two, so I don't understand how they can be partial to begin with.
8:48:29 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: I don't agree with that. The people that were surveyed probably understood the argument already and made their selection based on what they were taught to use.
8:51:03 PM Eagle: That's a bit of a stretch to make. A body of research doesn't agree with you, so you conclude that the research must be flawed.
8:51:32 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: No, the body of research doesn't agree with trends, so it's likely flawed.
8:52:25 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Trends being the web (modern) straying away from the conventional (old) practices of books (old).
8:53:13 PM Eagle: They've accounted for that trend, and Williams even addresses it in this book, and most designers agree: sans-serif type is easier to read on a computer screen.
8:53:20 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: I wish Mac would get with it and allow handwriting through MSN.
8:53:39 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: I'd illustrate to you why serifs make words illegible.
8:53:45 PM Eagle: Adium is the developer you should bemoan, and not Apple
8:53:55 PM Eagle: If I wanted to, I'd download MSN for Mac, but I don't want to
8:53:55 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Apple, adium, whatever
8:54:27 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Well I wish you'd get with the program and download an app that works well with features available in most other IM clients.
8:55:13 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: But it's your choice.
8:55:19 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: I'm just stating something I want.
8:57:00 PM Eagle: I'll now never download it just to spite your existence :D
8:59:36 PM Eagle: The real reason is that I have friends on all three messengers, and I like having a program that puts them all into one, so that I don't have three applications taking up all of my limited memory with their bullshit
9:00:00 PM Eagle: Adium is nice-looking, and it's simple. That's why I use it
9:01:09 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: It's poo and filth. ]]
9:01:18 PM Eagle: and not simple in the "I'm superior because I use deprecated technology" sort of way. Simple in that I don't have to fish through all kinds of windows and dialogs to find what I need
9:01:39 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: I don't have any friends who use AIM. go me.
9:03:12 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: I think if you were to clean out your buddy list you'd find that many people no longer use AIM and perhaps you would be able to convert the leftovers.
9:04:35 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Thus, ridding you of the necessity to use the current client.
9:04:55 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: And then there would be no other reasoning to your argument other than preference. ]]
9:05:09 PM Eagle: and convenience. :D
9:05:25 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: How is it more convenient? :/
9:06:32 PM Eagle: because I'm too lazy to download another client. I'm also too lazy to sift through my friends list and try to convert people to come to a messenger that I really don't even want myself.
9:06:37 PM Eagle: this one works just fine :D
9:06:52 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: 'Cept it's missing like 343434343 features.
9:07:03 PM Eagle: Nah, it's got millions of add-ons
9:07:11 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: handwriting
9:07:11 PM Eagle: I just don't want to download them
9:07:33 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: So your argument is only about preference then.
9:08:06 PM Eagle: nah, I'm still lazy, and it's more convenient for me to just stick with what's comfortable
9:08:20 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: You prefer to stick with what is comfortable.
9:08:23 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Preference.
9:08:55 PM Eagle: Nah, it's a necessity for me to not have my laziness disturbed kthx
9:09:09 PM Eagle: need, not a preference, get it right
9:09:28 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: It's not a necessity. You will not die.
9:09:36 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: It's a preference. ]]
9:10:07 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: And even then a necessity always contains a preference. See: I prefer to not die, so I need to eat.
9:10:23 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: I prefer to be lazy, so I need to leave my client alone.
9:11:00 PM Eagle: I NEED TO BE LAZY DIE AND ROT IN HELL
9:11:21 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: I prefer to be lazy. ]]
[disclaimer: LARGE wall of text below. Read only if you're a nut about print, or have an unexplained infatuation with typography. Also lewd references to death and constant half-baked fun ad-hominem attacks are always present in arguments between Otto and I. :D ]
Eagle: Me
INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Otto
Read more behind this cut
7:51:24 PM Eagle: this time sans retards who think shitty dafont display fonts automatically make you creative
7:51:32 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: kowl
7:51:48 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Make sure you use sans-serif fonts.
7:51:52 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: >___________________>
7:52:00 PM Eagle: I'll kill you <<
7:52:19 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Everyone hates serfis, I don't understand YOUR fascination as a print student
7:53:56 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: ]]
7:55:08 PM Eagle: print =/= web, I'm sorry :]
7:55:41 PM Eagle: and the research supports my position, and has for quite some time; for large blocks of text, serif typefaces are easier to read than sans-serif type faces
7:56:06 PM Eagle: this will differ between people of course, there are always outliers.
7:56:36 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: nurr, because reading a screen with a paragraph is so much different than reading a book with a paragraph
7:56:56 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: research can suck my ass in this case. print makers tend to be old-fashioned
7:57:05 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: they probably pooled old people
7:57:09 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: and surveyed them
7:57:11 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: like usually
7:57:14 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: usual*
7:57:44 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: also please refrain from using this emote ever again ---> :]
7:57:47 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: it's so awful >
7:57:57 PM Eagle: :] :] :] :] :] :] :]
7:58:02 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: ew
7:58:19 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Serifs are gross and archaich.
7:58:35 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: And they waste ink, and they don't look good at all sizes
7:58:59 PM Eagle: research supports me, not you blah
7:59:09 PM Eagle: what you're saying is entirely subjective to your own personal experience
7:59:13 PM Eagle: and not people as a whole
7:59:22 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Show me current research, mister proper arguing.
7:59:33 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Current being withing the last 5 years.
7:59:52 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Historically, serifs have been preferred.
7:59:53 PM Eagle: all current design books on PRINT DESIGN
7:59:56 PM Eagle: have said this
8:00:01 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Show me.
8:00:17 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: And show me their referrences that are from 5 years ago or less.
8:00:22 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Even 10 years ago or less.
8:00:24 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: You can't.
8:01:08 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Most of the "research" you talk about use the logic that "conventionally" (!) the serifs "guide" the eyes.
8:02:36 PM Eagle: Do you know the difference between legibility and readability?
8:03:06 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: That I do
8:03:52 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: I consider extra crap on my letters to interfere with my legibility and my readability.
8:04:50 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: It's more readable with simpler characters, as well as legible.
8:09:13 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Arguing that serifs are more "readable" because they "flow" the words together is just like arguing in favor of cursive.
8:09:45 PM Eagle: that's a retarded analogy.
8:10:02 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Not really. People use the "flow" argument all of the time.
8:10:08 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: It's actually one of the main arguments.
8:10:36 PM Eagle: why? script fonts, under which any "cursive" would fall under are not comparable to actual serif typefaces.
8:11:21 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: I beg to differ. Much of where serifs are based in comes from the motions of cursive.
8:11:26 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Like tails and whatnot.
8:11:48 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: And what "handwriting" looks like, hence different instead of constant letter thicknesses.
8:13:10 PM Eagle: If you're talking about my cursive, and are trying to compare it to the likes of Garamond, you're out of your mind and you fail at drawing analogies :P
8:13:32 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: ... I'm talking cursive in general. Not SCRIPT, cursive.
8:13:55 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: As in, connecting each letter.
8:15:30 PM Eagle: cursive is script, it never will be anything else :|
8:16:23 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: IF you're oin crack.
8:16:31 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Cursive is simple, script is fancy
8:16:36 PM Eagle: It's always going to look handwritten, and it never will be set as the typeface for an entire book
8:16:49 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: You don't write in script when you write a note. You write in cursive.
8:16:54 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Cursive is a type of script.
8:17:05 PM Eagle: script means written, you tard
8:17:09 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: I'm not going by definition, I'm going by the common implication.
8:17:41 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: When you think of script you think of something fancy, when you think of cursive you think of something fancy
8:18:49 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Cursive is a STYLE of script.
8:18:58 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: You cannot argue this, it is fact.
8:19:23 PM Eagle: That's what I've been saying. Cursive is not related to serif typefaces though.
8:19:50 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Handwriting and script are closely related with cursive and handwriting.
8:19:50 PM Eagle: serif typefaces preceded them in print because cursive and script fonts cannot be set as moveable type
8:20:00 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: cursive and serifs*
8:20:01 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: ffs
8:24:55 PM Eagle: "There are arguments about exactly why, but extensive studies do show that today in our society it is easier to read an extended amount of text when it is set in a serif typeface. Perhaps it is the serifs themselves that lead the eye from one character to the next, linking the letters into words, perhaps it is the subtle thick-thin contrast in the strokes, which most sans serifs do not have. Perhaps it is the moderate ratio of x-height to cap-height(the body of the letter in relation to the height of capital letters or the ascenders), since sans serif letter-forms tend to have larger x-heights." Williams, Robin. The non-designer's type book. Berkeley: Peachpit Press, 2006.
8:25:30 PM Eagle: All of my design books reflect that above
8:25:36 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: but extensive studies do show
8:25:42 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Which studies?
8:26:08 PM Eagle: I trust she's not making shit up. <.<
8:26:33 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: I trust she's citing the same old garbage available on the web from 50 years ago.
8:26:57 PM Eagle: She is an authority in the field of typography, and her knowledge is based on what she has read and put in this book, so I chose to cite her
8:28:49 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: http://www.fontriver.com/i/maps/times_sans_serif_map.png man look how nice times looks without serifs
8:29:47 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: And, also, again with the "horizontal flow" arguement, why have vertical serifs?
8:29:51 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Like on s and c?
8:30:53 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: and on some typefaces, the letter i, t, f
8:31:35 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: capital T
8:31:49 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Capital L
8:32:00 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: lowercase y
8:32:36 PM Eagle: I probably couldn't stand looking at that sans-serif Times set as a whole book
8:33:36 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: capital Z
8:33:48 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Capital E and F
8:34:55 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: That argument (the main argument for serifs) is illogical if there are vertical serifs.
8:34:56 PM Eagle: You're talking like I don't think sans-serif fonts have their uses-- you're wrong. But as someone who, you know, specializes in print-design and who has read many design books on print design...
8:35:08 PM Eagle: I can tell you what my conclusions are with some credibility <.<
8:36:04 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: I don't recognize your credibility because I feel that your books are by and large single sided.
8:36:59 PM Eagle: and you feel that way just because you have a different viewpoint. That would be like a color-blind person trying to say that red should not be used to indicate a "stop" sign
8:37:10 PM Eagle: We don't cater to the outliers, we cater to the majority
8:37:42 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Alienation should be a fallacy in arguments. ;)
8:38:01 PM Eagle: well it's not :D
8:38:08 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Well it should be. ]]
8:38:44 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Personally, I belive that serifs are archaic. This is further empasized by computers (modern) using serif fonts nearly exclusively.
8:38:57 PM Eagle: it's completely valid. Most people like serifs in their typefaces. Fact. All books are read by people. Therefore, most books should be set in serif typefaces
8:39:16 PM Eagle: Well go buy a kindle, and set your shit in sans-serif and quit bitching :P
8:39:22 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: All is a fallacy ]]
8:39:46 PM Eagle: You disagree that all books are read by people? o_O
8:40:11 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Not all books are read. Most books are.
8:40:13 PM Eagle: if you print a book for any other purpose than for it to be read by people, then you're doing it wrong
8:40:15 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Maybe not EVERY SINGLE ONE.
8:40:52 PM Eagle: Some books are read by cats then. We have no way to gauge whether they prefer serifs or sans-serif type-faces though
8:41:04 PM Eagle: but otherwise, we're talking about books that are read by people
8:41:31 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: You're missing the point. You cannot properly gauge what people prefer unless you ask people with no knowledge of the argument.
8:41:43 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Which I can guarantee was not the case in these studies.
8:42:09 PM Eagle: I imagine they were given two books and asked "Which of these are easier to read?"
8:42:19 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: I don't.
8:42:42 PM Eagle: well they certainly weren't asked "do prefer serif typefaces or sans-serif typefaces?"
8:44:11 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Yes, but they certainly weren't given what you described.
8:44:59 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: I mean, maybe they wer given two books, sure. But there's always a large pool of partial people especially when it's involving such an obscure subject of study.
8:47:28 PM Eagle: Wait, people being partial about serifs versus sans-serifs? Most people don't even know the difference between the two, so I don't understand how they can be partial to begin with.
8:48:29 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: I don't agree with that. The people that were surveyed probably understood the argument already and made their selection based on what they were taught to use.
8:51:03 PM Eagle: That's a bit of a stretch to make. A body of research doesn't agree with you, so you conclude that the research must be flawed.
8:51:32 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: No, the body of research doesn't agree with trends, so it's likely flawed.
8:52:25 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Trends being the web (modern) straying away from the conventional (old) practices of books (old).
8:53:13 PM Eagle: They've accounted for that trend, and Williams even addresses it in this book, and most designers agree: sans-serif type is easier to read on a computer screen.
8:53:20 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: I wish Mac would get with it and allow handwriting through MSN.
8:53:39 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: I'd illustrate to you why serifs make words illegible.
8:53:45 PM Eagle: Adium is the developer you should bemoan, and not Apple
8:53:55 PM Eagle: If I wanted to, I'd download MSN for Mac, but I don't want to
8:53:55 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Apple, adium, whatever
8:54:27 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Well I wish you'd get with the program and download an app that works well with features available in most other IM clients.
8:55:13 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: But it's your choice.
8:55:19 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: I'm just stating something I want.
8:57:00 PM Eagle: I'll now never download it just to spite your existence :D
8:59:36 PM Eagle: The real reason is that I have friends on all three messengers, and I like having a program that puts them all into one, so that I don't have three applications taking up all of my limited memory with their bullshit
9:00:00 PM Eagle: Adium is nice-looking, and it's simple. That's why I use it
9:01:09 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: It's poo and filth. ]]
9:01:18 PM Eagle: and not simple in the "I'm superior because I use deprecated technology" sort of way. Simple in that I don't have to fish through all kinds of windows and dialogs to find what I need
9:01:39 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: I don't have any friends who use AIM. go me.
9:03:12 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: I think if you were to clean out your buddy list you'd find that many people no longer use AIM and perhaps you would be able to convert the leftovers.
9:04:35 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Thus, ridding you of the necessity to use the current client.
9:04:55 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: And then there would be no other reasoning to your argument other than preference. ]]
9:05:09 PM Eagle: and convenience. :D
9:05:25 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: How is it more convenient? :/
9:06:32 PM Eagle: because I'm too lazy to download another client. I'm also too lazy to sift through my friends list and try to convert people to come to a messenger that I really don't even want myself.
9:06:37 PM Eagle: this one works just fine :D
9:06:52 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: 'Cept it's missing like 343434343 features.
9:07:03 PM Eagle: Nah, it's got millions of add-ons
9:07:11 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: handwriting
9:07:11 PM Eagle: I just don't want to download them
9:07:33 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: So your argument is only about preference then.
9:08:06 PM Eagle: nah, I'm still lazy, and it's more convenient for me to just stick with what's comfortable
9:08:20 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: You prefer to stick with what is comfortable.
9:08:23 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: Preference.
9:08:55 PM Eagle: Nah, it's a necessity for me to not have my laziness disturbed kthx
9:09:09 PM Eagle: need, not a preference, get it right
9:09:28 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: It's not a necessity. You will not die.
9:09:36 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: It's a preference. ]]
9:10:07 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: And even then a necessity always contains a preference. See: I prefer to not die, so I need to eat.
9:10:23 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: I prefer to be lazy, so I need to leave my client alone.
9:11:00 PM Eagle: I NEED TO BE LAZY DIE AND ROT IN HELL
9:11:21 PM INVITE ME @ GOOGLE VOICE YOU SCUMWHORES: I prefer to be lazy. ]]