Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways
So. We seem to have skipped actual BW/PotW discussion and gone straight to S1 overviews, but I don't like leaving them out, so I'm doing them anyway. XP
So here we go into Nine's goodbye... hold on tight, boys and girls, this one's gonna be a bumpy ride and not everyone's coming out alive...
Vague refs for Torchwood and Last of the Time Lords.
( 'BUT YOU HAVE NO WEA-PONS. NO DE-FEN-SES. NO PLAN.' 'Yeah. And doesn't that scare you to death.' )
So here we go into Nine's goodbye... hold on tight, boys and girls, this one's gonna be a bumpy ride and not everyone's coming out alive...
Vague refs for Torchwood and Last of the Time Lords.
( 'BUT YOU HAVE NO WEA-PONS. NO DE-FEN-SES. NO PLAN.' 'Yeah. And doesn't that scare you to death.' )
I've got a theory that Jack, as he gets older, starts to become sort of... plugged back into the flow of spacetime again. Because otherwise, how could he physically get older, which he is? The passage of time shouldn't touch him at all...
But since he is getting older and his body is changing, he can't be 100% fixed, no matter what it feels like right now to the Doctor and the Master. He's not completely disconnected from that flow, and he reconnects with it more as he goes on. Happens very slowly and gradually, but eventually his timeline looks normal enough again that the Doctor doesn't even notice... and that's also how he can die.
Plus, the other option is ending up with Jack sitting on a rock in a dead universe forever, going insane because there's never ever going to be any other life for him to interact with ever again, unless the Doctor happens to show up by accident. And that's not good.
The Doctor should have felt a measure of comfort with all us fangirls(and some boys) all over the world mentally glomping him throughout.
Yeah... Though he's also scared of the fangirls, so...
That's why it's dangerous to piss the TARDIS off. Even the Doctor isn't immune to her wrath.
Yeah, but I don't even remember what he did to her that time. O_O
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I've got a theory that Jack, as he gets older, starts to become sort of... plugged back into the flow of spacetime again. Because otherwise, how could he physically get older, which he is? The passage of time shouldn't touch him at all...
Doesn't really explain why he turns into a giant face, but I get your gist and it does make sense.
Plus, the other option is ending up with Jack sitting on a rock in a dead universe forever, going insane because there's never ever going to be any other life for him to interact with ever again, unless the Doctor happens to show up by accident. And that's not good.
Not the only other option, but I'm sure the Bad Wolf wouldn't have been cruel enough to leave him without a way to rest when he's lived as much as he can stand.
Yeah... Though he's also scared of the fangirls, so...
Well, there is that. I'm sure all that goodwill wasn't entirely chaste...
Yeah, but I don't even remember what he did to her that time. O_O
I don't know. Just being a smart-ass, really. Though it could have been something off-screen that happened just before the episode.
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Cos RTD likes to screw with us?
...yeah, that's the only bit I can't figure out.
Not the only other option,
What others would you suggest? Cos there are only a limited number of times he could go back to the beginning of life in the universe and start over.
but I'm sure the Bad Wolf wouldn't have been cruel enough to leave him without a way to rest when he's lived as much as he can stand.
Not deliberately. But unless the Doctor's lying about her not being able to control it, then she very well could have done that without meaning to...
But obviously I'd rather assume she didn't. It's a very depressing thought.
Well, there is that. I'm sure all that goodwill wasn't entirely chaste...
Not only that - do you read comments on doctorwhy? Cos all those fangirls going "Oh I love emo!Doc, he's so cute!" And he is, but it's still kinda scary... he'd definitely get the impression, if he saw that, that his fans don't want him to be happy.
Um - you'll probably get this post before the reply to your link, I should say, I'm a fan of the comic, but some of the commenters, um.
Though it could have been something off-screen that happened just before the episode.
Or she's still pissed off about something that happened years ago. I should probably stop assuming she's linear.
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Cos RTD likes to screw with us?
...yeah, that's the only bit I can't figure out.
That's really the only thing that makes any sense.
What others would you suggest? Cos there are only a limited number of times he could go back to the beginning of life in the universe and start over.
I meant other than him becoming the Face of Boe, actually, but there are other options. He could find his way into other universes/dimensions (not necessarily parallels). Maybe the physics would work differently enough outside of our universe that he wouldn't be immortal there. There was a fic I read once where he tried to kill himself by falling into a black hole and it spit him out into Pete's World, on the theory that black holes are gateways.
It's been awhile since I've seen the Torchwood ep with the Abaddon, but I remember how Jack killed it with an excess of life. What if that life/vortex energy that keeps him going slowly builds rather than fades? At the end, it builds up and explodes out of him, causing a big bang that reboots the universe. A bit cracky, sure, but no more so than plenty of things that are cannon. :P
Or, on a simpler note, maybe the TARDIS can take it back at some point when she can tell he's ready. Either he'd die right then, or just pick up aging where he left off.
Not deliberately. But unless the Doctor's lying about her not being able to control it, then she very well could have done that without meaning to...
I suspect he isn't lying. I'm not entirely sure how he would know differently if it wasn't true. I also suspect it's just his best guess as to what happened, as it's the most likely thing.
But obviously I'd rather assume she didn't. It's a very depressing thought.
The Rose half of Bad Wolf wouldn't do that to Jack, but it's possible the TARDIS half might, if she foresaw that Jack would do a lot of good for time/the universe with an uberlong lifespan. Rose wanted him alive again and the TARDIS saw the possibilities and took it further. The TARDIS is a mysterious being that not even the Doctor fully understands. Who's to say she doesn't have something of her own agenda? She does seem to take the Doctor where he's needed as or more often than where he's aiming to go. I don't think it's all poor driving. Perhaps she's as attracted to trouble as the Doctor is, either because of her own instinct or as a response to his need to be challenged. Or maybe she responds to the needs of the universe as much as to the needs of her Time Lord.
Or maybe it's time that Abby got some sleep?
Not only that - do you read comments on doctorwhy? Cos all those fangirls going "Oh I love emo!Doc, he's so cute!" And he is, but it's still kinda scary... he'd definitely get the impression, if he saw that, that his fans don't want him to be happy.
Yeah, definite creep factor when it's *you* they're talking about.
Um - you'll probably get this post before the reply to your link, I should say, I'm a fan of the comic, but some of the commenters, um.
Probably just as well I skipped the comments in favor of the comic, then. I read it all in one sitting.
Or she's still pissed off about something that happened years ago. I should probably stop assuming she's linear.
There's always that. Something to be said, too, for getting yours back when your target is no longer expecting it. Although, it does rather dull the effectiveness of one's revenge when the recipient doesn't connect with whatever he did 3 centuries back.
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I meant other than both options...
He could find his way into other universes/dimensions (not necessarily parallels). Maybe the physics would work differently enough outside of our universe that he wouldn't be immortal there.
Depends how "fixed" his fixedness is. In the parallels we've actually seen, it seems like spacetime itself is similar enough that he'd still have the same relationship to it... if he does, though, it could still be an option, long as he can keep moving, there's an infinite number of parallels. Maybe he could even find a Rose still BadWolfy enough to undo it.
But that depends on him actually finding a way through, with the universe being so much less kind and all.
It's been awhile since I've seen the Torchwood ep with the Abaddon, but I remember how Jack killed it with an excess of life. What if that life/vortex energy that keeps him going slowly builds rather than fades? At the end, it builds up and explodes out of him, causing a big bang that reboots the universe. A bit cracky, sure, but no more so than plenty of things that are cannon. :P
Killing Abaddon with an excess of life is pretty cracky itself. *shrugs*
I like that idea of him birthing the next universe, though...
Or, on a simpler note, maybe the TARDIS can take it back at some point when she can tell he's ready. Either he'd die right then, or just pick up aging where he left off.
I dunno - the TARDIS didn't do it by herself, I don't think she can undo it by herself, I think Rose would have to merge with her again, and she's not allowing that.
The Rose half of Bad Wolf wouldn't do that to Jack, but it's possible the TARDIS half might, if she foresaw that Jack would do a lot of good for time/the universe with an uberlong lifespan.
Only if she can also see that there's a way out for him. Because she is... vast, is the word, I think, and even the Doctor can't comprehend her motives sometimes, but she's not cruel to that extent.
Who's to say she doesn't have something of her own agenda?
Oh, she absolutely does. I've not believed for a long time that it was all poor driving. Might have been to begin with, but he knows his ship better than that by now, and he's proven how precisely he can fly her. I think when he puts in coordinates, she scouts for trouble spots that are near those coords in space, or easy to "mistakenly" shift a digit up or down in the time units (which is why we get 12 hours becoming 12 months, and mistakes of exactly a century and things like that). And if she can't find any, then she might take him where he told her to go.
And, yeah, any of your reasons why could be true, I'm still tossing those around myself.
Probably just as well I skipped the comments in favor of the comic, then. I read it all in one sitting.
Heh. I should skip comments, but I can never resist reading them. Mostly they're alright, they just scare my muse...
I'll try and dig up the icon someone made of the "Moffat hates me" comic, though, cos that was awesome.
Something to be said, too, for getting yours back when your target is no longer expecting it.
Yes... and she is bonded with a Prydonian, after all, his deviousness is probably infectious.
Although, it does rather dull the effectiveness of one's revenge when the recipient doesn't connect with whatever he did 3 centuries back.
Oh, I dunno, he might connect it. With the right bit of telepathic poking.
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Depends how "fixed" his fixedness is. In the parallels we've actually seen, it seems like spacetime itself is similar enough that he'd still have the same relationship to it... if he does, though, it could still be an option, long as he can keep moving, there's an infinite number of parallels. Maybe he could even find a Rose still BadWolfy enough to undo it.
I wasn't thinking just parallels. There's also places like the antimatter universe, places where the natural laws are likely to be significantly different. Parallels would probably, like you say, be similar enough not to interfere with his immortality. Although, the TARDIS lost power when she crossed over to Pete's World and needed a bit of energy from our universe from the Doctor to get her charged back up again. Maybe there would be a similar effect on Jack since it was vortex/TARDIS energy that made him a fixed point? If his body accesses that energy to reanimate and heal him, then it might not be able to do it, or at least have to work harder to get the right type in a parallel.
I like that idea of him birthing the next universe, though...
Not a bad way to go.
I dunno - the TARDIS didn't do it by herself, I don't think she can undo it by herself, I think Rose would have to merge with her again, and she's not allowing that.
You have a point. Still, maybe if the TARDIS was out of power, there might be a way for Jack to power her back up with vortex energy from himself and that might drain enough of it off for him to start aging again. Then again, if it was that easy, the Doctor would probably have thought of it already. A lot depends on how the immortality thing works.
Only if she can also see that there's a way out for him. Because she is... vast, is the word, I think, and even the Doctor can't comprehend her motives sometimes, but she's not cruel to that extent.
I don't think either the TARDIS or Rose would torture Jack by making him permanently immortal. It's more that the TARDIS might be willing to take the good that an extended life for Jack would do for the universe into greater account than Rose. The TARDIS's sense of...balance I suppose would be different. Is that making sense?
I think when he puts in coordinates, she scouts for trouble spots that are near those coords in space, or easy to "mistakenly" shift a digit up or down in the time units (which is why we get 12 hours becoming 12 months, and mistakes of exactly a century and things like that). And if she can't find any, then she might take him where he told her to go.
Oh yes, that's exactly what I think, too. I'm sure, too, that her decisions on how and when to misdirect her landings probably takes into account what sort of challenge (or lack of, since there must be some 'quiet' trips as well) the Doctor is up for or needs. I suspect that it may be a secondary consideration sometimes, or maybe she doesn't always understand her passengers as well as she might.
Yes... and she is bonded with a Prydonian, after all, his deviousness is probably infectious.
Excellent point.
Oh, I dunno, he might connect it. With the right bit of telepathic poking.
And then the Doctor could get all grouchy because it was centuries ago and he thought they were good. He might end up offending her again if he's not careful.
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Er, fixed point + antimatter universe sounds catastrophic to me... And then variation in stuff like the strength of the basic forces very quickly makes humanlike life impossible, he'd have to be really lucky to find a universe where the laws differed enough to make him normal again while not differing so much that he couldn't exist, or find any kind of life he could communicate with.
Although, the TARDIS lost power when she crossed over to Pete's World and needed a bit of energy from our universe from the Doctor to get her charged back up again. Maybe there would be a similar effect on Jack since it was vortex/TARDIS energy that made him a fixed point?
That's possible - but I think of his transformation is an all-at-once sort of thing, rather than something than something continuously sustained by the vortex. He comes back to life because it's written into the universe that he has to, so it would depend on how far-reaching Bad Wolf's power was.
Then again, if it was that easy, the Doctor would probably have thought of it already.
That's the problem - anything we can think up, if we can then say, "Oh, in that case, the Doctor can fix it", then we have to assume it won't work. Because he's had plenty of time to come up with a way, and he certainly has motivation, and he's got nothing.
It's more that the TARDIS might be willing to take the good that an extended life for Jack would do for the universe into greater account than Rose. The TARDIS's sense of...balance I suppose would be different. Is that making sense?
Yes, yes it is. As I said, I wouldn't expect the TARDIS to think like a human, or even like a Time Lord, so yeah, her priorities would look a bit skewed. Oh - maybe that's what he meant by "She couldn't control it" - not that Bad Wolf couldn't control her power, but that Rose couldn't control her actions when her motives didn't quite line up with those of the TARDIS?
I'm sure, too, that her decisions on how and when to misdirect her landings probably takes into account what sort of challenge (or lack of, since there must be some 'quiet' trips as well) the Doctor is up for or needs.
Not just challenges, but distractions too. Notice how when he's most emo, she sends him to people who confuse the hell out of him? (Donna, when he's grieving for Rose; and Jackson, when he's grieving for Donna. And the day he gets dumped three times, she contrives to collide with herself - hmm...)
I suspect that it may be a secondary consideration sometimes, or maybe she doesn't always understand her passengers as well as she might.
Oh, she does screw up sometimes... she takes him to Mars on that day? Yeah...
And then the Doctor could get all grouchy because it was centuries ago and he thought they were good. He might end up offending her again if he's not careful.
Oh, inevitably. And then that leads to more trouble, and... vicious cycle, really.
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Er, fixed point + antimatter universe sounds catastrophic to me... And then variation in stuff like the strength of the basic forces very quickly makes humanlike life impossible, he'd have to be really lucky to find a universe where the laws differed enough to make him normal again while not differing so much that he couldn't exist, or find any kind of life he could communicate with.
Well, maybe the antimatter universe wasn't the best example, though, I'm sure it would be a relief to know that there was someplace he could go that could kill him. We do know there are other universes out there that aren't parallels (or they are, but with such extreme and fundamental differences that we don't recognize them as such) and there may be possibilities in that, though it is undeniably a very long shot that living in or visiting one would be helpful to him.
That's possible - but I think of his transformation is an all-at-once sort of thing, rather than something than something continuously sustained by the vortex.
I'd been thinking of it that way, too, until the Abaddon thing made me consider it in terms of energy as opposed to something he just *is* now. It's equally possible that he's not drawing on anything, it's more that he just exists outside of time in some fundamental way, moving through it but not really touching it or being influenced. Like the Doctor, in a way, only he doesn't sense or manipulate time because he's...divorced from it in some way while the Doctor is not.
That's the problem - anything we can think up, if we can then say, "Oh, in that case, the Doctor can fix it", then we have to assume it won't work. Because he's had plenty of time to come up with a way, and he certainly has motivation, and he's got nothing.
Although, it's probably not something he spends lots of time actively working on. He knows Jack will need a solution someday, but he wasn't ready to die yet in SOD/LOTTL. It may be the sort of thing that's more simmering in the back of his mind, not forgotten by any means, but not on the front burner, either. If Jack came to him today for an answer, more focused attention to the problem might get that result. Or, too, he could be missing a piece of the puzzle, some aspect of Jack's condition he wasn't aware of that would show up with study. He could even be missing something obvious, as geniuses caught up in the minutia can be prone to doing (like Rose having to point out the London Eye to him three times before it clicked). I could see the Doctor dismissing something simple because it was simple it never occurred to him that it would work.
Yes, yes it is. As I said, I wouldn't expect the TARDIS to think like a human, or even like a Time Lord, so yeah, her priorities would look a bit skewed.
That's what I was getting at.
Oh - maybe that's what he meant by "She couldn't control it" - not that Bad Wolf couldn't control her power, but that Rose couldn't control her actions when her motives didn't quite line up with those of the TARDIS?
I hadn't thought of that as his meaning, but it's definitely possible. I wonder how much the TARDIS may have communicated to him about what happened and how much Rose may have remembered and shared with him about it?
Not just challenges, but distractions too. Notice how when he's most emo, she sends him to people who confuse the hell out of him? (Donna, when he's grieving for Rose; and Jackson, when he's grieving for Donna. And the day he gets dumped three times, she contrives to collide with herself - hmm...)
Yes, distraction definitely helps him. And really, a bored Time Lord, especially the Doctor, is a frightening prospect.
Oh, she does screw up sometimes... she takes him to Mars on that day? Yeah...
Yes. If she'd seen that one coming, she'd have refused to go anywhere near it.
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Of course, he'd have to pick the right black hole... and risk getting ripped apart by the gravity differentials and still coming back to life if he got the wrong one.
We do know there are other universes out there that aren't parallels (or they are, but with such extreme and fundamental differences that we don't recognize them as such)
There are still only a relatively small crop of universes that would fit what he's looking for, though, so, as you say, it's a very long shot.
What the Abaddon thing makes me think is, Abaddon is drawing out people's life energy, and everyone has it, it's just that Jack's is eternally self-renewing.
It's equally possible that he's not drawing on anything, it's more that he just exists outside of time in some fundamental way, moving through it but not really touching it or being influenced.
Which is exactly what I think.
He knows Jack will need a solution someday,
Except that Jack told him he's the Face of Boe, so he already knows it's going to work out... oh, dammit. *fends off plotbunny about Ten going off to make the Face of Boe eventually mortal again while avoiding EoT*
but he wasn't ready to die yet in SOD/LOTTL.
Mm... and you're thinking of that school of thought that if Jack was unfixed, he'd immediately die, yeah? It's an interesting idea, but I don't really follow it.
He could even be missing something obvious, as geniuses caught up in the minutia can be prone to doing (like Rose having to point out the London Eye to him three times before it clicked). I could see the Doctor dismissing something simple because it was simple it never occurred to him that it would work.
That's a very good point.
That's what I was getting at.
Well, good then. I thought we were on the same page on that bit, just wasn't sure...
I wonder how much the TARDIS may have communicated to him about what happened and how much Rose may have remembered and shared with him about it?
Well, he also had the vortex in him, briefly. And I'm not sure if I've said, but I don't think he managed to get rid of it entirely, even while regenerating into Ten - I think he has a little bit of it influencing him right up to EoT, remember his "vengeful god" speech to Jack?
And Rose... we know she didn't remember any of it at first when she woke up, but bits of it could have crept back into her head.
And really, a bored Time Lord, especially the Doctor, is a frightening prospect.
Completely agreed.
Yes. If she'd seen that one coming, she'd have refused to go anywhere near it.
And at the end, she very obviously wishes she had.
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Of course, he'd have to pick the right black hole... and risk getting ripped apart by the gravity differentials and still coming back to life if he got the wrong one.
The antimatter universe doesn't require a black hole. I forget the name of the serial, but it was during Four's time while he was traveling with Sarah Jane that they encountered it and there was just a deep hole in the ground in a mostly deserted planet.
Except that Jack told him he's the Face of Boe, so he already knows it's going to work out... oh, dammit. *fends off plotbunny about Ten going off to make the Face of Boe eventually mortal again while avoiding EoT*
If that's true, which I'm still not sure of.
Mm... and you're thinking of that school of thought that if Jack was unfixed, he'd immediately die, yeah? It's an interesting idea, but I don't really follow it.
It's most likely that he would just pick up where he left off on aging, but there's always a risk that he might not. So far as we know, he's the first and only being in the universe that this has ever happened to, so there's an inherent level of uncertainty.
Well, he also had the vortex in him, briefly. And I'm not sure if I've said, but I don't think he managed to get rid of it entirely, even while regenerating into Ten - I think he has a little bit of it influencing him right up to EoT, remember his "vengeful god" speech to Jack?
Interesting theory. I'd never considered that before.
And Rose... we know she didn't remember any of it at first when she woke up, but bits of it could have crept back into her head.
We know that she at least knows what happened (to the Daleks, at least) because she tells the Cult of Skaro about it in Doomsday.
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Well, he could just jump into random holes in the ground, I suppose, but it's a bit desperate... cos the Doctor's not likely to tell him where it is!
If
that's true, which I'm still not sure of.
It's pretty much axiomatic for me, is the thing... we've just come full circle, haven't we?
It's most likely that he would just pick up where he left off on aging,
That would have been my assumption, yeah. Because he did come back undamaged to begin with, it's not as though he got shot in the gut and is walking around with a bloody great wound...
but there's always a risk that he might not. So far as we know, he's the first and only being in the universe that this has ever happened to, so there's an inherent level of uncertainty.
Yeah, but that's what makes it fun. XD
Interesting theory. I'd never considered that before.
I've seen it around fandom, and immediately pounced on it, cos the vortex did, after all, kill him, even though he said he got rid of it - and even though Rose survived its removal and woke up perfectly healthy.
Unless - oh, didn't think of this before - unless he healed her just before giving it back.
We know that she at least knows what happened (to the Daleks, at least) because she tells the Cult of Skaro about it in Doomsday.
Which means either they sat down and talked about it at some point, or she does remember at least some of it.
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Well, he could just jump into random holes in the ground, I suppose, but it's a bit desperate... cos the Doctor's not likely to tell him where it is!
Well, the Doctor's not the only source of information in the universe.
Yeah, but that's what makes it fun. XD
Oh yes!
Unless - oh, didn't think of this before - unless he healed her just before giving it back.
That I have considered and it does make sense. I also kind of like the idea that there's still a tiny little bit of Bad Wolf left in Rose (though it works better for fanfic than cannon, overall), as long as it doesn't turn her into a comic book hero.
Which means either they sat down and talked about it at some point, or she does remember at least some of it.
Yeah, "I sang a song and the Daleks went away" doesn't really wash long term, so I suspect they talked about it.
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Yeah, but with Gallifrey gone, isn't he gonna be fairly short of sources of info about the antimatter universe?
I also kind of like the idea that there's still a tiny little bit of Bad Wolf left in Rose (though it works better for fanfic than cannon, overall), as long as it doesn't turn her into a comic book hero.
Timeline Girl! Able to leap dimensional walls in a single bound! Faster than a speeding staser-blast! More powerful than a big yellow truck!
I think there is, though, cos the werewolf picked it up - and because of the nonlinearity of time, there now always has been, perhaps.
Yeah, "I sang a song and the Daleks went away" doesn't really wash long term, so I suspect they talked about it.
Yup. But she still never asked about Jack, did she? Cos if she'd known the Doctor abandoned him, she'd have made him go back for him. I've been assuming, actually, that she thinks he's dead, cos the Doctor's lie about him rebuilding the Earth would be so transparent to her. Some of the other companions might have believed it, cos they know the reasons people leave, but Rose would never believe Jack would leave them by choice.
So then she probably decided Jack was dead and the Doctor just didn't want to tell her.
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