GoT: books vs show rant
I know I'm late to rant about this (and I'm sure many people did a much better job of it than I can) but I've been thinking about this a lot and I need to get it out.
WARNING: Spoilers for GoT s1-3 and ASoIaF books 1-4.
( read more )
WARNING: Spoilers for GoT s1-3 and ASoIaF books 1-4.
( read more )
Stannis/Melisandre - in the books, I was always unclear as to whether or not he slept with her. I think he did once - in order to create the shadow child that killed Renly. Apart from that I do think he was faithful, and I don't like the way the show portrays him as being so besotted with Melisandre. It is inconsistent with his character. While Stannis is bound by duty, in my opinion, he's obssessed with it to the point where it does verge on mania, even murder. He WAS close to sacrificing a child in the books - Davos intervened.
I'm on more shaky ground with your other complaints because I just don't remember much about them in the books.
I will say that I love some of the changes the show has made: in the books, Arya and Tywin never meet; in the show they have several awesome scenes together and great chemistry.
Cersei is a much more three-dimensional character as written in the show.
Margaery's scenes with Joffrey are perfect, establishing so much about their characters.
Yes - changes have been made, some good, some bad, some I'm pretty indifferent about since I really don't think they change the tenor and plot of the show. There was no way on earth the writers were going to be able to adapt these books without making some major changes, and so far I still think that they are doing a pretty good job.
Sorry for the long ramble.
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We no longer have the advantage of the individual POV's, and that's a major adjustment that the showrunners have to find their way around.
Yes, you're right of course. I was making things too simple and black and white. Sometimes something that works in a book will never work on TV and vice versa.
My memory of book!Cat and Jon is different than yours. I found her to be extremely harsh toward Jon in the books, and completely unapologetic about it. She never changes in her feelings. Show!Cat does.
I remember book!Cat as more cold than harsh. And harsh and cold still doesn't make it evil. Praying for a person's death is sort of an evil intent... BTW in the book there is a passage where Cat thinks she was unfair to Jon but admits that she couldn't help the way she felt because Jon was a constant reminder of Ned's betrayal. But, yes, I'm glad show!Cat changes her feelings I'm just upset the show writers had to take her hatred to extreme.
Has Shae told Tyrion that she loves him?
Well, not in those words exactly... But they did have a very big scene (when Tyrion woke up after the Blackwater) where Shae asked him to leave everything and run away with her to the free cities. When Tyrion said he couldn't there was this "I am yours and you are mine" line that - to me - made it look like she really cared...
So IDK...
I guess we'll have to wait and see where this goes...
But I love show!Shae's relationship with Sansa, yes! :D
Re: Rob. Yeah, I guess you're right. And I do love Talisa so I really shouldn't be complaining about this change...
Re: Sansa and kneeling. Yeah, Sansa has more than enough haters as it is. Not kneeling for Tyrion would have probably gotten her even more hate than she regularly gets. (Damn, it's tough when your favorite character is hated by the fandom so vigorously.)
What bothered me about all Sansa and Tyrion conversations is that the writers seemed to want to create a romantic angle there AND GODS PLEASE NO DON'T DO THAT TO ME!!! There was ZERO romantic interest in the books on BOTH sides and if the writers change that because "everyone loves precious Tyrion, how can anyone NOT fall in love with him on the spot?" I'll be super pissed. D:
Re: Stannis. Yeah, he did want to sacrifice a child. But somehow in my opinion it doesn't qualify as abuse just yet. First, it was a one time thing. It's not like he's sacrificing kids left and right. Second, it is something very fantasy-like, something that can hardly happen in real life, and therefore it doesn't hit close to home. Where "I yell at you, then strangle you, then fuck you on the table" is the kind of behavior that is VERY real to some people and that's why I think it's ten times worse. I liked Stannis in the books. I can't say I like him on the show and it disappoints me. D:
Oh, yes, Arya/Tywin and Margaery/Joffrey were BRILLIANT and absolutely DELICIOUS!! :D I loved their scenes to pieces!
And to be fair show!Joffrey, while still a monster, is more human than book!Joffrey, who is vilified beyond any reason imho.
There was no way on earth the writers were going to be able to adapt these books without making some major changes
Yes, you're right. Though some of their tendencies are still very disturbing to me I guess the real reason I'm so angry is that they've ruined my precious SanSan... I'm that shallow. I realize that there are more important things than one pairing.
*sigh*
Sorry it took me so long to respond!! And, bb, don't ever apologies for a long reply!! I always enjoy reading your thoughts!!
*HUGS TIGHT*
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Sansa is one of my favorite characters, too. But she has a lot of growing up to do before she can be a player in the game of thrones. I interpret the scenes between Sansa and Tyrion as illustrating how two people who feel incredibly awkward about the situation they are in attempt to find some common ground (pretty hard when his family has been systematically destroying hers). I don't see their conversations as romantic at all; more - well, here we are, might as well try to get to know each other a little bit. I do think Tyrion is attracted to Sansa, but he is a realist about the situation, and he also loves Shae.
Now, I am totally creeped out by any hint of a romantic pairing between Sansa and the Hound, but I know that there are many who love the idea. IMO Sandor is just too incredibly damaged to be changed by 'the love of a good woman'. He's attracted to Sansa; he cares for her in a rather brutal way and has saved her life, but he's never going to be a kind compassionate lover. It's just not in him. He's a rapist and a murderer. I can see Sandor dying to protect Sansa, but I just can't see them together as a couple.
Now, on the other hand (ducks), I can see Sansa and Tyrion together as a couple - in the future. He has to be humbled, and learn that women are not all whores; she has to learn hard lessons about intrigue and power (probably from Littlefinger - who I hope and pray she ends up killing. Pushing him out the moon door would be a nice touch.) But who knows. One of the great things about the books is that you don't know what's going to happen around the next corner.
I am hot and cold on Stannis. I thought he was awesome at the Blackwater, but I hate seeing him almost groveling around Melisandre. I'm terrified that she is going to convince him to sacrifice Shireen at some point. Speaking of child sacrifice, historically, rulers seeking victory in war did sometimes sacrifice children of royal blood to gain them advantage with the gods.
If Stannis, or anyone, hurts Shireen, they are dead to me forever. For some reason, she's always been a favorite of mine, even though she's such a minor character.
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Nonetheless, as a proud SanSan warrior, I feel compelled to argue my case! So bear with me. :P
1. I ship them in the far, far future, when Sansa grows up and Sandor returns from the Quite Isle all "quietened" and enlightened.
2. I believe he has it in him to be a gentle lover. His interactions with Sansa are often described with a word "gentle" in it after all. When he wipes the blood from her lip, for example.
3. She does dream about him, sexually, and she does imagine the kiss that never happened and thinks of it often, so I assume his attraction to her is not unrequited.
4.a. I don't remember any implications that Sandor was a rapist in the books. He kills people, sure, but not a word was ever said about raping. He doesn't even go to brothels, as far as we know (some fans even think he's a virgin altogether, because he has these burnt face issues). Tyrion, on the other hand, is a rapist in canon. He raped his first wife after his father's soldiers were done with her. Now there's an argument that can be made that he was forced to do it. But when Tyrion described these events he didn't see this as rape. He saw it as a whore doing what she was paid to do.
4.b. Of all Sansa's pairings (meaning SanSan, Sansa/Tyrion, Sansa/LF), Sandor is the only one we never see hurting a woman. Both LF and Tyrion killed women they had previously had a sexual relationship with.
5. Sansa and Tyrion in the books have zero attraction to each other. (Well, Tyrion does want her on their wedding night but it's pure physiology.) They were bored and outright miserable every time they had to spend time with each other so I can't imagine them together at all.
But, yes, I do realize that different people ship different things and what works for me won't work for somebody else. :D
Also Sansa/Littlefinger with a Littlefinger/Moondoor endgame is my second favorite pairing for Sansa after SanSan. :D
Oh, I love Shireen, too!! :D She's such a sweet, smart kid! :D I hope she has some awesome big part to play in the future!
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Tyrion's attitude towards, and actions with, women are very problematic. I never know what to think about his actions with Tysha. He loved her, he felt betrayed by her because he believed his father, his father ordered him to have sex with her - I'm sure Tyrion didn't see it as rape at the time. In fact, I picture him as being hysterical, probably crying, while everything was happening. That made no difference to the harm done to Tysha though, so it was still rape. I admit there are definitely major problems with Tyrion/Sansa.
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Uhm... Well... Sorry about that random outburst. O_O
I do see Tyrion more as a tool in that situation (with his father being a real rapist) than a rapist. His "woe is me, my wife was a whore" attitude though... Yeah, it's a tough question.
I don't think there is one single pairing in ASoIaF that isn't problematic in one way or another.
GRRM is a true champion when it comes to screwing with character's lives. O_O
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