Prong collar question

[olive_gretski]

Are prong collars and clicker training counterproductive? Can I use a prong collar and still get all of the benefits of positive reinforcement?

Background: I have a 75-pound, 4.5 year old German Shepherd named Darla. She came into my life about a year ago after my dad passed away. My parents had her for about 1.5 years before then and I can't

Comments

[wirenth]

i would not if there is any chance at all that her reactivity is fear-based, which it sounds like it to me that it is. physical punishment, which is what the prong collar is doing, is just going to make it worse, make the exposure to other dogs even more unpleasant and cause for worry

[olive_gretski]

It's really tough to keep her away from other dogs. There's a dog for every other house in my neighborhood and limited routes to avoid them. As often as I am able, I turn the other way. Sometimes though, it's too far to turn back and I probably assume she's ok to be closer when she is not.

I'm asking the question because of you indirectly. I saw your recommendation for a trainer in NJ a couple of posts back and checked the website. She says no prong collars and I figured I'd ask and see what I can do right away. If I can wean her off of it, that would probably be the best for the both of us.

Oh and Darla went a class with 8 other dogs. She would bark but eventually calmed down and listened to us during the sessions. Even though the trainer used positive reinforcement, he still advocated leash corrections. I think we we had the only dog with a choke chain - as an example of a difficult dog.

Thanks for all of the recommendations. I'll add the books to my library list right away.

[wirenth]

i would absolutely not use leash corrections with this dog in this context, no matter what piece of equipment you're using. it makes me sad that she was put up as an example of a "difficult dog". she sounds more like a scared and upset dog. she's not being bad, she's communicating.

the thing with dealing with reactivity is that you're not just teaching obedient behavior- you want to change her whole mindset, her whole response to the situation. you can't "correct" fear out of a dog. you can shut them down and teach them to not behave at all, but that's not teaching them to deal calmly with the situation.

get ahold of those books- i think they'll help you immensely! :)

[remcat]

Agreed -- the value of walks as exercise is highly over-rated, and if the OP is regularly encountering other dogs and her pup is having a big reaction ... the walk is likely doing more harm than good.

I have a young Border Collie, and we do zero on-leash walking around the neighborhood. I do a lot of mental exercises for him throughout the day, and I will drive to safe off-leash areas (ocean, woods, lake, etc.) where he can let it rip and really run. We do backyard agility and retrieving almost every day, and in the summer he swims in our pool. But, no leash walking around the neighborhood.

If you really enjoy walks -- by all means work up to being able to walk! In order to make progress you need to be working sub-threshhold with your dog. Once he's reacted and had a fit, it's already too late for learning a better behavior -- all that's left is to get you & him out of a bad situation.

[goingferal]

Yes, you CAN have the dog wear a prong collar while using clicker training. Clicker training is the strategic use of positive rewards with a marker sound to help bridge the time between behavior and reward

[olive_gretski]

I'm still new to clicker training, but I am trying to train her in all different rooms in my house, indoors and outdoors. I don't know if I tried with and without her collar yet though. I probably did because we take off the prong collar when we aren't going on a walk. I know I have been reinforcing her with my stance and actions approaching other dogs, so I am actively trying to correct myself.

I may be putting too much human thought and emotion into it still, but it felt like she knew that she wouldn't hurt herself by pulling and that's why she was so much worse on the harness yesterday.

[coendou]

I don't think the type of collar/harness is going to affect her reactivity. That's an entirely separate problem from general bad leash manners, and has to be dealt with separately. I'm not 100% against properly-used prong collars like some people are, but I don't think they're an appropriate solution to this problem. I think that when you're dealing with leash reactivity, the #1 priority is to convince your dog that seeing/being around the other dog is an okay, calm experience. Anything that would possibly make it a negative experience, even somewhat, should be removed

[abserdman]

On advice from this community, I started taking Valentine (my leash reactive dog) out by herself specifically to work on this problem. We'd go to the park and sit on a bench together and I'd feed her lots of tasty treats every time another dog (or a bike other thing she doesn't like) went by. No matter how close or far away they were, if she could see them, she got treats. A summer of that once a week or so and she was showing definite improvement!

This is actually one of the first things I'd suggest. OP: You need to make the association that "other dogs" = "good things from you" and the only way to do that is to get out there and make that connection.

I know you say she's not particularly food motivated, so what are you using as treats? Try things like peanut butter, soft cheese, baked liver/heart, chicken... Make sure she's hungry before you take her out and it should be easier.

[suki_stardust]

The treat can make all the difference. I found that Loki wasn't too keen on the liver but will do anything for a teeny tiny piece of hot dog (just rinse the brine off) Our friends GSD would hop lakes of fire for tripe but it smells so bad.
My problem is Loki wants to play with every dog so starts bowing and making excited yips. I find the 'watch me' command helps but only when I have hot dogs or a toy.
Sorry I have nothing more useful to say but good luck and please let us know how it goes :)

[olive_gretski]

So far, I've been using the treats called training rewards. I definitely need to try higher value rewards. We had the problem of her being overweight, so we didn't give her any additional food. Again, I totally need to change my mindset.

[cottonmanifesto]

sounds to me like you're expecting too much too soon if darla is too aroused to respond to the click. you need to start counter-conditioning at a level at which darla's able to respond. if that is 500 feet away from another dog, then so be it.

why would you pull her away? you can just as easily turn her with your hip/leg.

[olive_gretski]

I haven't mastered getting in front of her to body block her yet. When I try it, I feel like she's getting too close to the other dogs, and pulling has been the quickest way to get away. I do stand in front of her once she is calming down.

I'm definitely going too fast. I thought I was rewarding good behavior by letting her get closer, but that's not the case.

[cottonmanifesto]

pulling automatically makes tension on the leash. body blocks redirect her AND block her view of whatever stimulus is causing the reaction.

she doesn't want to get closer, why would that be rewarding?

[olive_gretski]

She does want to get closer! I used to think that she wanted to play but she just didn't know the proper dog language to get that message to the other dogs. She has had good encounter with dogs in the past. A couple of times though, she nipped, but never made contact. And once, she bit her own lip in the process. We have been trying to teach her that good behavior lets her get closer, but I think we need to go a couple of steps back to other dogs = good things and slowly work back up to contact.

I'd like to get a video of her behavior because I'm not 100% sure she's afraid or if she's just frustrated and doing what we've unintentionally been reinforcing for the last year.