Ah! Okay. I know what you're referring to now. The point of that statement --- and remember, it is from John's perspective, not necessarily mine :D --- is not that either John or Dean would value an innocent person's life less than Jo's. Rather, it is John saying that the REAL Dean (as compared to the YED masquerading as Dean) would have killed Sam to keep Sam from having to live with killing someone he loved (ie: Jo).
So John's point there isn't that Jo's life would be worth the real Dean saving here someone else's life --- someone Sam or Dean didn't know or love -- wouldn't be. Rather, his point was that the REAL Dean will ALWAYS choose Sam over ANYONE (John being unaware that the possible exception to that rule would be if Dean were forced to choose beteen Sam and John ... something I explored in a pre-series story with a title that escapes me at the moment), so while the REAL Dean would allow Sam to kill pretty much anyone rather than killing Sam to protect the innocent person's life. The REAL Dean would NOT let Sam kill Jo ... not because Dean would be protecting Jo's life, but rather because Dean would be protecting Sam from having to live with the weight of having killed someone he loved (Jo) while possessed.
So from John's perspective on that statement, he's not talking about Jo as an individual, either important or not, either loved or not. Rather, he is talking about Jo as an avatar for "someone Sam loves enough that him killing them would destroy him."
And John is pointing out to Sam something Sam knows, on his deepest levels, is true about the REAL Dean: That John would trade his live for Dean even knowing the kind of damage that would do to Dean because John is just that selfish. And Sam would not kill John to kill the YED even knowing the kind of damage that would do to John because Sam is just that selfish. But Dean --- the REAL Dean --- put in that position, would sacrifice his most sacred possession (Sam) and destroy himself in the process (by being the one to have to kill Sam) in order to stop Sam from killing Jo, knowing the kind of damage that would do to Sam to have to live with the knowledge of what he'd done. Because Dean is exactly that UNSELFISH when it comes to love, and both John and Sam understand the difference between themselves and the REAL Dean on that level.
And this is also why John says he trained Dean his whole life to be the one to pull the trigger when killing the YED would require him to kill John, too. John is saying Dean would have sacrificed himself (having to live with having killed his dad) to do what he knew John most needed (to kill the YED even at cost of his own life) because Dean loved John more than he loves himself. And John had been counting on that personality train all those years that, if it came to it, he was selfish enough to be able to live with knowing he'd caused the damage to Dean that it would cause to kill John if what that damage accomplished was destroying the YED.
And John is honest enough about his own failures of character to admit he would inflict that damage on Dean out of his own selfish need to destroy the YED (something he knows Sam agrees with about him) while at the same time being (arguably, as you are hearin it from what John says, not what he might be thinking, which is usually 2 different things with John) blind enough to his own heroicism of character to realize he would inflict that damage on Dean to save Sam from his eventual fate if the YED isn't destroyed, and he is doing that NOT necessarily to save Sam (again, arguable as we aren't inside his head in that instant) but rather to save DEAN from having to eventually KILL Sam to save the world.
So the whole circulinear point of that statement is this: (continued)
That John is telling Sam what Sam knows and believes about the REAL Dean: that Dean so loves Sam that he would kill Sam over allowing Sam to do something that would destroy Sam. And he is saying this is unique to Dean where he and Sam would choose differently, preserving Sam's life out of their own selfish need to keep Sam alive (something Sam also believes). Even while John is lying to himself (failing to know himself, IMO) and also, intentionally or unintentionally depending on your POV of the inside of John's head in that moment, lying to Sam (because if he told him the real truth, Sam would never believe it ... the truth to telling lies is to tell the ones that will believed as truth) inthat the parallel for this ultimate selfless act to prove how much better man Dean is than either John or Sam is, in truth, EXACTLY what John did in trading his life to the YED, but not his soul (which is how I will ALWAYS believe that trade should have played out and also a major reason I wrote this fic in the first place: to make that point with my reasoning for it), because he was willing to "kill" Dean (the damage he inflicts by knowing Dean will know John traded his life for Dean's) in order to save Dean from being DESTROYED, which is what John knows will happen to Dean if he ever has to kill Sam for any reason ... all of which circles back to John's point of proof for the REAL Dean over the YED Dean inthat the REAL Dean would have DESTROYED himself by killing Sam in order to save Sam from DESTROYING himself by killing Jo (ie; someone he loves, family, as Sam can survive killing an innocent even if the guilt plagues him for the rest of his life, but everything that is Sam would have been destroyed by killing someone he considered family ... also a point John fails to understand about Sam not shooting him in the Devil's Trap moment, as Dean would be saving Sam by shooting him -- an equitable trade in John's eyes --- but Sam would NOT have been saving Dean to shoot John, he would have only been destroying the demon, which was about saving HIMSELF from his future fate ... something that isn't important enough to Sam to sacrifice his father to it. The whole point of the story ... that both John and Sam fail to see their own depth of love as would fail to sacrifice their loved ones for their own salvation even as they recognize it in Dean, if not in one another.
So pulling this to a full (and I realize VERY confusing0 circle: that's why John can prove to Sam it wasn't the REAL Dean in Born Under a Bad Sign. Because the REAL Dean would have destroyed himself to save Sam from having to live with killing someone they consider family. So the Dean who DIDN'T make that sacrificial, self-destructive, choice? Can't possibly be the REAL Dean.
So in the long run, doesn't have anything to do with Jo VS someone they don't know other than in the difference the cost it exacts to kill family versus killing an innocent person you don't know. (not right or wrong, but cost to self ... think of how differently you'd feel if you had to choose between killing a stranger to save the world or killing your mother to save the world ...). Rather, it has everything to do with FAMILY and LOVE and SACRIFICE as all the Winchesters view them, even if John and Sam only really see that in Dean. Because Dean is Mary, while Sam is John. :D
Hope I haven't hopelessly confused you. I know this is an incredibly convoluted explanation, but hopefully it was cogent enough for you to follow my thinking to some degree. If you have questions and you want to risk another novel-length response, feel free to ask and I'll try to clarify if I can.
Another strange (and possibly very stupid) questioncelticlongingNovember 2 2015, 00:01:26 UTC
Thank you for answering my previous question. Sorry it took me so long to reply to your answer!
Here goes another question. If the Winchesters came across a civilian in danger, would they kidnap that person in order to protect them if they had no other choice?
So John's point there isn't that Jo's life would be worth the real Dean saving here someone else's life --- someone Sam or Dean didn't know or love -- wouldn't be. Rather, his point was that the REAL Dean will ALWAYS choose Sam over ANYONE (John being unaware that the possible exception to that rule would be if Dean were forced to choose beteen Sam and John ... something I explored in a pre-series story with a title that escapes me at the moment), so while the REAL Dean would allow Sam to kill pretty much anyone rather than killing Sam to protect the innocent person's life. The REAL Dean would NOT let Sam kill Jo ... not because Dean would be protecting Jo's life, but rather because Dean would be protecting Sam from having to live with the weight of having killed someone he loved (Jo) while possessed.
So from John's perspective on that statement, he's not talking about Jo as an individual, either important or not, either loved or not. Rather, he is talking about Jo as an avatar for "someone Sam loves enough that him killing them would destroy him."
And John is pointing out to Sam something Sam knows, on his deepest levels, is true about the REAL Dean: That John would trade his live for Dean even knowing the kind of damage that would do to Dean because John is just that selfish. And Sam would not kill John to kill the YED even knowing the kind of damage that would do to John because Sam is just that selfish. But Dean --- the REAL Dean --- put in that position, would sacrifice his most sacred possession (Sam) and destroy himself in the process (by being the one to have to kill Sam) in order to stop Sam from killing Jo, knowing the kind of damage that would do to Sam to have to live with the knowledge of what he'd done. Because Dean is exactly that UNSELFISH when it comes to love, and both John and Sam understand the difference between themselves and the REAL Dean on that level.
And this is also why John says he trained Dean his whole life to be the one to pull the trigger when killing the YED would require him to kill John, too. John is saying Dean would have sacrificed himself (having to live with having killed his dad) to do what he knew John most needed (to kill the YED even at cost of his own life) because Dean loved John more than he loves himself. And John had been counting on that personality train all those years that, if it came to it, he was selfish enough to be able to live with knowing he'd caused the damage to Dean that it would cause to kill John if what that damage accomplished was destroying the YED.
And John is honest enough about his own failures of character to admit he would inflict that damage on Dean out of his own selfish need to destroy the YED (something he knows Sam agrees with about him) while at the same time being (arguably, as you are hearin it from what John says, not what he might be thinking, which is usually 2 different things with John) blind enough to his own heroicism of character to realize he would inflict that damage on Dean to save Sam from his eventual fate if the YED isn't destroyed, and he is doing that NOT necessarily to save Sam (again, arguable as we aren't inside his head in that instant) but rather to save DEAN from having to eventually KILL Sam to save the world.
So the whole circulinear point of that statement is this: (continued)
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That John is telling Sam what Sam knows and believes about the REAL Dean: that Dean so loves Sam that he would kill Sam over allowing Sam to do something that would destroy Sam. And he is saying this is unique to Dean where he and Sam would choose differently, preserving Sam's life out of their own selfish need to keep Sam alive (something Sam also believes). Even while John is lying to himself (failing to know himself, IMO) and also, intentionally or unintentionally depending on your POV of the inside of John's head in that moment, lying to Sam (because if he told him the real truth, Sam would never believe it ... the truth to telling lies is to tell the ones that will believed as truth) inthat the parallel for this ultimate selfless act to prove how much better man Dean is than either John or Sam is, in truth, EXACTLY what John did in trading his life to the YED, but not his soul (which is how I will ALWAYS believe that trade should have played out and also a major reason I wrote this fic in the first place: to make that point with my reasoning for it), because he was willing to "kill" Dean (the damage he inflicts by knowing Dean will know John traded his life for Dean's) in order to save Dean from being DESTROYED, which is what John knows will happen to Dean if he ever has to kill Sam for any reason ... all of which circles back to John's point of proof for the REAL Dean over the YED Dean inthat the REAL Dean would have DESTROYED himself by killing Sam in order to save Sam from DESTROYING himself by killing Jo (ie; someone he loves, family, as Sam can survive killing an innocent even if the guilt plagues him for the rest of his life, but everything that is Sam would have been destroyed by killing someone he considered family ... also a point John fails to understand about Sam not shooting him in the Devil's Trap moment, as Dean would be saving Sam by shooting him -- an equitable trade in John's eyes --- but Sam would NOT have been saving Dean to shoot John, he would have only been destroying the demon, which was about saving HIMSELF from his future fate ... something that isn't important enough to Sam to sacrifice his father to it. The whole point of the story ... that both John and Sam fail to see their own depth of love as would fail to sacrifice their loved ones for their own salvation even as they recognize it in Dean, if not in one another.
So pulling this to a full (and I realize VERY confusing0 circle: that's why John can prove to Sam it wasn't the REAL Dean in Born Under a Bad Sign. Because the REAL Dean would have destroyed himself to save Sam from having to live with killing someone they consider family. So the Dean who DIDN'T make that sacrificial, self-destructive, choice? Can't possibly be the REAL Dean.
So in the long run, doesn't have anything to do with Jo VS someone they don't know other than in the difference the cost it exacts to kill family versus killing an innocent person you don't know. (not right or wrong, but cost to self ... think of how differently you'd feel if you had to choose between killing a stranger to save the world or killing your mother to save the world ...). Rather, it has everything to do with FAMILY and LOVE and SACRIFICE as all the Winchesters view them, even if John and Sam only really see that in Dean. Because Dean is Mary, while Sam is John. :D
Hope I haven't hopelessly confused you. I know this is an incredibly convoluted explanation, but hopefully it was cogent enough for you to follow my thinking to some degree. If you have questions and you want to risk another novel-length response, feel free to ask and I'll try to clarify if I can.
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Here goes another question. If the Winchesters came across a civilian in danger, would they kidnap that person in order to protect them if they had no other choice?
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