I do have a bit of an issue with the whole Jack-Rose relationship post PotW. I think Jack's story was glossed over a bit and it was out of character for Rose not to push the Doctor more about it. To me, it felt like RTD threw up his hands as in "we don't know how to address this so let's just ignore it."
When Jack found the Doctor, he was pretty snarky and jaded. After the Doctor explained to Jack how he became immortal (this is one of my favorite scenes between Jack and the Doctor), Jack seemed to be at first surprised and then showed sympathy for the Doctor. He loved the Doctor and wouldn't have lashed out at him while the Doctor was obviously still morning his loss of Rose. I can't help but wonder if there was more to it though. I know in some of the Torchwood eps, Jack was a bit angstier and at times resentful of his immortality. I would think it would be human nature for him to want someone or thing to blame for his suffering.
I think one of the things missing from JE was a good solid Jack/Rose moment. The Doctor apologized to Jack but Rose never did and shouldn't she? It appeared she was unaware of what happened and that lays squarely on the Doctor, but she still never pushed the Doctor to find Jack. It just feels like their relationship/friendship was left unresolved. I understand that there was alot going on in this ep and there may not have been time to address it, but if there were, I still think that Jack would have pulled her aside to talk. Hmmm it's one of those unresolved issues that is interesting to read in fanfic.
I can understand the Doctor not wanting to tell Rose exactly what happened to/because of her, but her not pushing to find out becomes another thing hanging over S2 as "she doesn't push the Doctor anymore" and really she should have been allowed to at least ask what happened. Even if it was mostly the TARDIS, it was her body so she has a right to know.
Totally agreed that she should have been allowed to ask about it. Idk ... I guess I kind of fanwank it as that since the song in her head was "forbidden", maybe it's like Donna and she'll explode if she thinks too hard about it? Lol idk.
I get what you mean about s2 Rose not challenging him in the same way that she challenged Nine, or how Donna challenges Ten. I think though that Rose does challenge him on a different level - emotionally. He's just not ready/able to deal with her devotion and the evolution of their ~friendship~ (until she's torn away from him, then he's kind of hung up on her). Whether this type of challenge was for better or for worse is in the eye of the beholder I think. I think it is exemplified by some of his protesting-too-much early s2 words and actions.
Ahem. Season 2-3 Ten in a nutshell from my point of view:
"I'm gonna pretend that everything is normal and you're just the latest in my daisy-chain of TARDIS companions, and that nothing else is happening. So I'm going to tell you you're just the latest in a long line of people I never mention, and I'm gonna let myself get momentarily distracted by a another chick (who incidentally I'm never gonna mention again either) ... but then everyone else is going to fade away, and Mickey is going to call me on this BS in his parting shot to us. And it is JUST going to be you and me, and that is emotionally terrifying and very challenging for me to accept .... and then you're going to get torn away and it's going to devastate me as predicted, so I'm going to be unhealthily obsessed with you and almost die (if it weren't for Donna) drowning some baby spiders as a coping mechanism for my newfound angst. And I'm going to bring you up all the time to my new companion, and cause her a lot of hurt. Oh well. At least Donna and Jack like to listen to me angst about you D="
Totally agreed that she should have been allowed to ask about it. Idk ... I guess I kind of fanwank it as that since the song in her head was "forbidden", maybe it's like Donna and she'll explode if she thinks too hard about it? Lol idk.
I suppose forbiddenness means she isn't going "WAIT your time machine STOLE MY BODY and did genocide and I don't even remember this? TAKE ME HOME NOW."
I think it is exemplified by some of his protesting-too-much early s2 words and actions.
Which is those?
Ahem. Season 2-3 Ten in a nutshell from my point of view:
I see him as more sort of "Oh shit, losing people still hurts? And it's WORSE now? WTF? Well, Donna says I should talk it through. And I should probably try not to get too close to Martha, just in case I ruin her life as well. Wait, that's NOT the right thing to do? Okay, Donna, I'm over it all now and... she's BACK? Luckily I have this clone thing lying about to take care of that problem. Shit, now Donna has left me AS WELL? Whatever, Imma regenerate now to avoid falling for gingers... well, shit."
PS: I am batshit about Ace, but I do think that his chain of lost people do hurt him. He never talks about all sorts of things that hurt him, y'know? Most of the time the latest one distracts him from all that, but then they inevitably leave as well. I think the Doctor thinks along those lines based on "As opposed to what?!" which I interpret as him being pissed off at the idea that "other companions who aren't me mean less to you, right?"
"as opposed to what?", inviting Mickey along, Reinette, etc - pretty much most of his s2 actions until Mickey called them on it at the end of Age of Steel. After that point, there's a big change in his attitude towards Rose and he doesn't push her away as much. I'd noticed it a while back - but then a friend mentioned that RTD talks about this in The Idiot's Lantern commentary, and said that it was intentional. He felt he needed to put up roadblocks between the Ten/Rose ship in the early part of the season, because (lol @ how he apparently phrased this), 'otherwise there's only one other place their relationship would have gone by the end of the season, and it's a family show!!!!!" XD
I do think that his chain of lost people do hurt him
I mean, it very well might, but we never SEE that. We don't see him crying/grieving/angsting over reminders of previous companions, or mentioning them repeatedly (to an extent that even became a turn-off for some fans in s3), or taking new companions to the same places he took old ones ("rebound!!" as Martha said), or heck - even drawing them in the Journal of Impossible Things (which not only has a portrait of Rose, but an entire page and a half filled with pictures of "roses" and mentions of "roses"). Or heck, even when Jackson starts thinking he's the Doctor, singling out a "Rosita" for a companion. Or when 11 gives Craig his memories, having the image of Ten be an image of Ten-with-Rose-by-his-side, something that didn't happen with any of the the other Doctors and companions in that "transfer".
I know it all this was RTD's way of pushing the ship more than anything else (and in the latter case, Moffat's way of giving a nod to the ship, which he's been gracious enough to do repeatedly) - but in canon, we really don't see anything along the same lines with anyone else we've seen to date. (Except for the loss of the Time Lords - definitely LOTS of tears/weeping/angsting there D=)
Now is all this GOOD, or unhealthy and kind of obsessive? That's a different question XD
He felt he needed to put up roadblocks between the Ten/Rose ship in the early part of the season, because (lol @ how he apparently phrased this), 'otherwise there's only one other place their relationship would have gone by the end of the season, and it's a family show!!!!!" XD
Well, supposedly in the early drafts she was to leave with Mickey halfway? Dunno how true that is, but I can believe it because it very much fits. And then it's all the race to the finale and the need to make that as sad as possible.
We don't see him crying/grieving/angsting over reminders of previous companions
He also almost never mentions his children, and we have to assume they meant an awful lot to him what with being his children and all.
taking new companions to the same places he took old ones
That's just whether or not a story gets a sequel. I don't think he was thinking of Sarah Jane when he went to Skaro with Romana.
but in canon, we really don't see anything along the same lines with anyone else we've seen to date.
I'd argue Amy (and obviously River), and frankly Donna as well if we weren't being constantly told outside the show that we must not ship it ever ever ever amen. (I don't mind clarification sometimes, but I got so sick of being told how I was supposed to be watching the show. I'm GLAD Confidential is gone and I think Moff should get off Twitter.) Actually, it's more sexual with Amy which just *adds* to my deep confusion over whether I was supposed to see the Doctor (Ten, anyway) as having any sexual interest in Rose when he didn't seem to.
Now is all this GOOD, or unhealthy and kind of obsessive? That's a different question XD
It's good that he's learned he can talk about them when they're gone, but bad when it actively damages his other relationships (i.e. Martha).
He also almost never mentions his children, and we have to assume they meant an awful lot to him what with being his children and all.
He's mentioned them at least 3 times though, across New Who series - comparatively, that's a lot! XD
(I don't mind clarification sometimes, but I got so sick of being told how I was supposed to be watching the show. I'm GLAD Confidential is gone and I think Moff should get off Twitter.)
Yeah I see in differently in that I actively like that - to me, the author is not dead, and I feel that it's helpful to me to understand some of the deeper meanings, intentions, and arcs that might not seem so cohesive if I tried to wing it. I get particularly squee-y over DWM features and the old RTD-era MP3 podcasts XD
He's mentioned them at least 3 times though, across New Who series - comparatively, that's a lot!
It means he likes them almost as much as fish fingers! XD
Yeah I see in differently in that I actively like that - to me, the author is not dead, and I feel that it's helpful to me to understand some of the deeper meanings, intentions, and arcs that might not seem so cohesive if I tried to wing it. I get particularly squee-y over DWM features and the old RTD-era MP3 podcasts XD
Possibly I'm too jaded/confused by all the conflicting thoughts of all the people who have ever written for DW. At a certain point I just ditched Authorial Intent as relatively meaningless when the next person can just contradict whatever you were trying to say. (I don't think RTD would write the Doctor feeling *guilty* about Rose, but it makes sense to me and so I don't really care what Moffat was going for with it.)
When Jack found the Doctor, he was pretty snarky and jaded. After the Doctor explained to Jack how he became immortal (this is one of my favorite scenes between Jack and the Doctor), Jack seemed to be at first surprised and then showed sympathy for the Doctor. He loved the Doctor and wouldn't have lashed out at him while the Doctor was obviously still morning his loss of Rose. I can't help but wonder if there was more to it though. I know in some of the Torchwood eps, Jack was a bit angstier and at times resentful of his immortality. I would think it would be human nature for him to want someone or thing to blame for his suffering.
I think one of the things missing from JE was a good solid Jack/Rose moment. The Doctor apologized to Jack but Rose never did and shouldn't she? It appeared she was unaware of what happened and that lays squarely on the Doctor, but she still never pushed the Doctor to find Jack. It just feels like their relationship/friendship was left unresolved. I understand that there was alot going on in this ep and there may not have been time to address it, but if there were, I still think that Jack would have pulled her aside to talk. Hmmm it's one of those unresolved issues that is interesting to read in fanfic.
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I get what you mean about s2 Rose not challenging him in the same way that she challenged Nine, or how Donna challenges Ten. I think though that Rose does challenge him on a different level - emotionally. He's just not ready/able to deal with her devotion and the evolution of their ~friendship~ (until she's torn away from him, then he's kind of hung up on her). Whether this type of challenge was for better or for worse is in the eye of the beholder I think. I think it is exemplified by some of his protesting-too-much early s2 words and actions.
Ahem. Season 2-3 Ten in a nutshell from my point of view:
"I'm gonna pretend that everything is normal and you're just the latest in my daisy-chain of TARDIS companions, and that nothing else is happening. So I'm going to tell you you're just the latest in a long line of people I never mention, and I'm gonna let myself get momentarily distracted by a another chick (who incidentally I'm never gonna mention again either) ... but then everyone else is going to fade away, and Mickey is going to call me on this BS in his parting shot to us. And it is JUST going to be you and me, and that is emotionally terrifying and very challenging for me to accept .... and then you're going to get torn away and it's going to devastate me as predicted, so I'm going to be unhealthily obsessed with you and almost die (if it weren't for Donna) drowning some baby spiders as a coping mechanism for my newfound angst. And I'm going to bring you up all the time to my new companion, and cause her a lot of hurt. Oh well. At least Donna and Jack like to listen to me angst about you D="
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I suppose forbiddenness means she isn't going "WAIT your time machine STOLE MY BODY and did genocide and I don't even remember this? TAKE ME HOME NOW."
I think it is exemplified by some of his protesting-too-much early s2 words and actions.
Which is those?
Ahem. Season 2-3 Ten in a nutshell from my point of view:
I see him as more sort of "Oh shit, losing people still hurts? And it's WORSE now? WTF? Well, Donna says I should talk it through. And I should probably try not to get too close to Martha, just in case I ruin her life as well. Wait, that's NOT the right thing to do? Okay, Donna, I'm over it all now and... she's BACK? Luckily I have this clone thing lying about to take care of that problem. Shit, now Donna has left me AS WELL? Whatever, Imma regenerate now to avoid falling for gingers... well, shit."
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"as opposed to what?", inviting Mickey along, Reinette, etc - pretty much most of his s2 actions until Mickey called them on it at the end of Age of Steel. After that point, there's a big change in his attitude towards Rose and he doesn't push her away as much. I'd noticed it a while back - but then a friend mentioned that RTD talks about this in The Idiot's Lantern commentary, and said that it was intentional. He felt he needed to put up roadblocks between the Ten/Rose ship in the early part of the season, because (lol @ how he apparently phrased this), 'otherwise there's only one other place their relationship would have gone by the end of the season, and it's a family show!!!!!" XD
I do think that his chain of lost people do hurt him
I mean, it very well might, but we never SEE that. We don't see him crying/grieving/angsting over reminders of previous companions, or mentioning them repeatedly (to an extent that even became a turn-off for some fans in s3), or taking new companions to the same places he took old ones ("rebound!!" as Martha said), or heck - even drawing them in the Journal of Impossible Things (which not only has a portrait of Rose, but an entire page and a half filled with pictures of "roses" and mentions of "roses"). Or heck, even when Jackson starts thinking he's the Doctor, singling out a "Rosita" for a companion. Or when 11 gives Craig his memories, having the image of Ten be an image of Ten-with-Rose-by-his-side, something that didn't happen with any of the the other Doctors and companions in that "transfer".
I know it all this was RTD's way of pushing the ship more than anything else (and in the latter case, Moffat's way of giving a nod to the ship, which he's been gracious enough to do repeatedly) - but in canon, we really don't see anything along the same lines with anyone else we've seen to date. (Except for the loss of the Time Lords - definitely LOTS of tears/weeping/angsting there D=)
Now is all this GOOD, or unhealthy and kind of obsessive? That's a different question XD
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Well, supposedly in the early drafts she was to leave with Mickey halfway? Dunno how true that is, but I can believe it because it very much fits. And then it's all the race to the finale and the need to make that as sad as possible.
We don't see him crying/grieving/angsting over reminders of previous companions
He also almost never mentions his children, and we have to assume they meant an awful lot to him what with being his children and all.
taking new companions to the same places he took old ones
That's just whether or not a story gets a sequel. I don't think he was thinking of Sarah Jane when he went to Skaro with Romana.
but in canon, we really don't see anything along the same lines with anyone else we've seen to date.
I'd argue Amy (and obviously River), and frankly Donna as well if we weren't being constantly told outside the show that we must not ship it ever ever ever amen. (I don't mind clarification sometimes, but I got so sick of being told how I was supposed to be watching the show. I'm GLAD Confidential is gone and I think Moff should get off Twitter.) Actually, it's more sexual with Amy which just *adds* to my deep confusion over whether I was supposed to see the Doctor (Ten, anyway) as having any sexual interest in Rose when he didn't seem to.
Now is all this GOOD, or unhealthy and kind of obsessive? That's a different question XD
It's good that he's learned he can talk about them when they're gone, but bad when it actively damages his other relationships (i.e. Martha).
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He's mentioned them at least 3 times though, across New Who series - comparatively, that's a lot! XD
(I don't mind clarification sometimes, but I got so sick of being told how I was supposed to be watching the show. I'm GLAD Confidential is gone and I think Moff should get off Twitter.)
Yeah I see in differently in that I actively like that - to me, the author is not dead, and I feel that it's helpful to me to understand some of the deeper meanings, intentions, and arcs that might not seem so cohesive if I tried to wing it. I get particularly squee-y over DWM features and the old RTD-era MP3 podcasts XD
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It means he likes them almost as much as fish fingers! XD
Yeah I see in differently in that I actively like that - to me, the author is not dead, and I feel that it's helpful to me to understand some of the deeper meanings, intentions, and arcs that might not seem so cohesive if I tried to wing it. I get particularly squee-y over DWM features and the old RTD-era MP3 podcasts XD
Possibly I'm too jaded/confused by all the conflicting thoughts of all the people who have ever written for DW. At a certain point I just ditched Authorial Intent as relatively meaningless when the next person can just contradict whatever you were trying to say. (I don't think RTD would write the Doctor feeling *guilty* about Rose, but it makes sense to me and so I don't really care what Moffat was going for with it.)
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TRUE LUV!!!! XD
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