Interesting points, but I do disagree with you on a couple, particularly the one that Moffat's pretty much erased what RTD did. He didn't, really, just added some things and tweaked others. Let me explain what I mean. First, in terms of erasing the Doctor's guilt over what he did. That's certainly true in the case of Eleven, but not Ten, Doctor 8.5 (e.g. John Hurt's doctor), or Nine. It's pretty much been established that all the Doctors in a multi-Doctor story but one, the current, and therefore, oldest, incarnation, forget what they experience when the adventure is over. Therefore, Doctor 8.5, Nine, and Ten will finish out the rest of their lives still believing they killed the Time Lords and destroyed Gallifrey.
Now, regarding the events of "The End Of Time" and the Time Lock. If you remember, the General told the other members of the War Council that the High Council had come up with a plan of its own, but it had failed. That, to me, implied that the events of TEOT took place at either the same time as the ones in DOTD, or immediately after them. Another way to look at it is in order for Ten's younger self (I think the part of his timeline Ten was taken from in DOTD was post-"Waters Of Mars") to help Eleven and Doctor 8.5 secure Gallifrey in the pocket universe, his future self had to find out what Rassilon's plan was and stop him from carrying it out, which he did, but at the cost of his life, as we know. In other words, everything in TEOT still happens because it has to in order for the events of DOTD to occur.
The status of the Time Lock is a bit harder to pin down, but I'll give you the theory I've heard about that. It basically boils down to this: the Time Lock and the pocket universe Gallifrey was hidden in are different things (and The Moment presumably was not what time-locked the Time War). Therefore, the Time War is time-locked, but Gallifrey and the Time Lords (presumably including crazy as a loon Rassilon & the High Council) are not. This isn't exactly a water-tight theory, I admit, as it's based mostly on conjecture and our fellow fans filling in the blanks, as it were, but it makes sense and seems like as good an explanation as any to me. *Shrugs*
Thanks for the explanation of how DotD fits in Ten's timeline regarding EoT. I watched the entire EoT last weekend trying to figure it out. What I missed was the link from DotD regarding the High Council's failed plan.
Although previous versions of the Doctor forget about DotD events, we do not. I pity the poor people who get all this spoilt before they've had a chance to watch Nine and Ten's run. "Oh, poor Doctor, doesn't know his planet's in a time bubble." That was not the kind of pity we were meant to feel for him.
My interests really don't lie in untangling the details of multi-season continuity, so I won't fight hard for my position. (I was actually going to refer you to greenpear's post on the subject, but I see you've participated in that conversation already, so it won't be anything new to you.
It's pretty much been established that all the Doctors in a multi-Doctor story but one, the current, and therefore, oldest, incarnation, forget what they experience when the adventure is over.
But unless I'm mistaken, here the Doctors' own timeline has been changed. The War Doctor didn't destroy Gallifrey, he saved it. He doesn't remember the enounter with his successor incarnations, fair enough; but why would he have a false memory of destorying (typo - but I like it, so leaving it be!) the Time Lords when that didn't happen?
ETA:
This isn't exactly a water-tight theory, I admit, as it's based mostly on conjecture and our fellow fans filling in the blanks, as it were, but it makes sense and seems like as good an explanation as any to me.
And there's my problem with Moffat's plotting in a nutshell, one I've been ranting about critiquing for years now. I don't mind ambiguity in my fiction, but internal contradiction is bad for my suspicion of disbelief, as is the requirement that fans settle for theories that aren't "exactly ... water-tight" and are "based mostly on conjecture" in order to make what shows up on screen make even some kind of sense.
Now, regarding the events of "The End Of Time" and the Time Lock. If you remember, the General told the other members of the War Council that the High Council had come up with a plan of its own, but it had failed. That, to me, implied that the events of TEOT took place at either the same time as the ones in DOTD, or immediately after them. Another way to look at it is in order for Ten's younger self (I think the part of his timeline Ten was taken from in DOTD was post-"Waters Of Mars") to help Eleven and Doctor 8.5 secure Gallifrey in the pocket universe, his future self had to find out what Rassilon's plan was and stop him from carrying it out, which he did, but at the cost of his life, as we know. In other words, everything in TEOT still happens because it has to in order for the events of DOTD to occur.
The status of the Time Lock is a bit harder to pin down, but I'll give you the theory I've heard about that. It basically boils down to this: the Time Lock and the pocket universe Gallifrey was hidden in are different things (and The Moment presumably was not what time-locked the Time War). Therefore, the Time War is time-locked, but Gallifrey and the Time Lords (presumably including crazy as a loon Rassilon & the High Council) are not. This isn't exactly a water-tight theory, I admit, as it's based mostly on conjecture and our fellow fans filling in the blanks, as it were, but it makes sense and seems like as good an explanation as any to me. *Shrugs*
Reply
Although previous versions of the Doctor forget about DotD events, we do not. I pity the poor people who get all this spoilt before they've had a chance to watch Nine and Ten's run. "Oh, poor Doctor, doesn't know his planet's in a time bubble." That was not the kind of pity we were meant to feel for him.
Reply
It's pretty much been established that all the Doctors in a multi-Doctor story but one, the current, and therefore, oldest, incarnation, forget what they experience when the adventure is over.
But unless I'm mistaken, here the Doctors' own timeline has been changed. The War Doctor didn't destroy Gallifrey, he saved it. He doesn't remember the enounter with his successor incarnations, fair enough; but why would he have a false memory of destorying (typo - but I like it, so leaving it be!) the Time Lords when that didn't happen?
ETA:
This isn't exactly a water-tight theory, I admit, as it's based mostly on conjecture and our fellow fans filling in the blanks, as it were, but it makes sense and seems like as good an explanation as any to me.
And there's my problem with Moffat's plotting in a nutshell, one I've been ranting about critiquing for years now. I don't mind ambiguity in my fiction, but internal contradiction is bad for my suspicion of disbelief, as is the requirement that fans settle for theories that aren't "exactly ... water-tight" and are "based mostly on conjecture" in order to make what shows up on screen make even some kind of sense.
Reply
Leave a comment