Good Lord.

[doctorcaligari]

Okay, I sure hope England doesn't lock down social media. Way to pour fuel on a fire. Because you know I'm sure none of the rioters will be reminded of Egypt or Iran or Syria.

Serious question - are the rioters in England "looting thugs" because their actions are qualitatively that different from those of revolutionaries throughout history, or

Comments

[sorceror]

It's true that this is getting far more attention than peaceful demonstrations do, unfortunately. However, I don't think it's the kind of attention that is going to result in positive change. I also doubt that there's any real connection between the 2000 peaceful protestors mentioned in the article - or the segment of society that they represent - and the looters.

It's also true that the incident that triggered all this was the police shooting of a black man. However, there are an awful lot of people saying that the looting has nothing to do with that. There does seem to be racial undercurrent to some of the violence, but I don't think it's just white vs non-white. That incident where three young men were killed while defending their neighbourhood was POC vs POC:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2024375/BIRMINGHAM-RIOTS-Race-murder-victim-Haroon-Jahans-father-Tariq-calls-calm.html

And there was that poor Malaysian student who was mugged by a multi-ethnic group of punks:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2024461/LONDON-RIOTS-2011-Ashraf-Haziq-says-good-samaritans-threatened-stab-him.html

Mostly, though, there seems to be a lot of criminal activity by people who think it's fun, and a chance to grab some free stuff, and who get caught up in the mob mentality - like the Vancouver Stanley Cup riot two months back. (As a Vancouverite by birth, that incident really struck me - it's been a while since I left, but I'm pretty sure that life there hasn't gotten so much worse that it should lead to rioting in the streets.)

Both right and left have been trying to put their own political spin on it - either it's because of the austerity measures (left), or because the previous 13 years of Labour rule have produced a lost generation of welfare-dependent entitled spoiled brats (right) - but I don't think either explanation really holds water. The looters seem to come from all walks of life: as a few commentators have pointed out, it isn't just poor or unemployed people.

"Most were teenagers or in their early twenties, but a surprising number were older."

"Most interestingly of all, they were predominantly white, and many had jobs."

The British Establishment itself is hardly in any position to criticize.

So while it may say something about British society as a whole (or English society, since there haven't been any incidents in Wales or Scotland or Ulster as far as I know), I don't think there are any easy explanations. Nor, unfortunately, any easy solutions. Although there have been a few heartening developments along with the disappointing ones.

[doctorcaligari]

It's true that this is getting far more attention than peaceful demonstrations do, unfortunately. However, I don't think it's the kind of attention that is going to result in positive change.

Yep; it seems to be eliciting a big backlash/crackdown, in fact. (On the other hand, it has got people talking about the issues, eh.)

I also doubt that there's any real connection between the 2000 peaceful protestors mentioned in the article - or the segment of society that they represent - and the looters.

There might or might not be any overlap there, I have no idea. What is clear is that both groups are angry. (Or at least the marchers and the rioters both are. Don't know how much of the looting is just opportunistic.)

There does seem to be racial undercurrent to some of the violence, but I don't think it's just white vs non-white. That incident where three young men were killed while defending their neighbourhood was POC vs POC:

Yeah, I saw that one. Horrible.

And there was that poor Malaysian student who was mugged by a multi-ethnic group of punks:

Didn't see that one though. Gahhh.

Mostly, though, there seems to be a lot of criminal activity by people who think it's fun, and a chance to grab some free stuff, and who get caught up in the mob mentality - like the Vancouver Stanley Cup riot two months back. (As a Vancouverite by birth, that incident really struck me - it's been a while since I left, but I'm pretty sure that life there hasn't gotten so much worse that it should lead to rioting in the streets.)

I'm sure that accounts for at least some people's motivations -- greed, opportunism and crowdthink. But I also don't think it's wise to discount the people who are saying there was genuine anger behind the initial spark. At least, it shouldn't be an excuse to avoid looking at any problems that may be contributing.

So while it may say something about British society as a whole (or English society, since there haven't been any incidents in Wales or Scotland or Ulster as far as I know), I don't think there are any easy explanations. Nor, unfortunately, any easy solutions. Although there have been a few heartening developments along with the disappointing ones.

Probably not (re easy answers). If there's a problem with police being oppressive in certain neighborhoods, though, that's not an easy problem but it is a fixable one. There are American cities that have made notable improvements on that account after a determined campaign to clean the police department and the local police-community relations up. (And if WE can do it, hell, I'm SURE England can do it. :-)