What I try to keep paramount in my mind is how emotionally raw Nine is. Even after all this time with Rose -- this is ep 8 after all -- he's still slips right onto the edge of rage when things go wrong. I guess, you know, the destruction of Gallifrey is still right there for him all the time. :(
Trying to impress her, yeah -- but then accusing her of traveling with him with this scheme in mind -- calling her stupid more than once -- taking her Tardis key -- he's a mess! What impresses me most of all is how Rose doesn't let him shove her around, how she stands up for herself, and at the same time, she willingly apologizes.... and instantly, INSTANTLY forgives him when he offers her his own apology. Her faith in him never wavers for an instant -- even when emotionally he's all over the place.
I guess one thing in this ep is how the Doctor's characteristic arrogance gets a big slap in the face when the ptimadactyls show up to sterilize the planet. He's not used to making such egregious mistakes. a ptimadactyl Actually Ate Him. and he would've stayed dead too, except Pete sacrificed himself.
I love the little throw away bit in this, how Rose assumes her Dad would never change the world -- and of course Alt Pete is over there inviting world leaders to parties and running Torchwood. :D
I think a lot of what you have to say is why I love the episode so much. It deepens their relationship and characterization. For me, it also shows his vulnerability. He's blaming Rose when really he blames himself. His actions also reveal how deeply emotionally affected he is by her. Let's not forget that he tried to fix it so her father could stay alive when he know how to save the world by letting Pete die and didn't act or say anything. He tried to find another way. I also love how Rose KNOWS how much she means to the Doctor and that he wouldn't ACTUALLY leave her (as he soon as he realized the danger, he went running for Rose). The Doctor was just having a bit of a tantrum (when things didn't go the way he expected) and she knew it. This episode, because they worked through some of their emotional baggage (on both their ends), came all that closer which is a great lead in to the romance of episodes nine and ten all the way up to the finale.
"He's blaming Rose when really he blames himself." --I perceive that as well, so I'm glad it's there for you too. :) It is important to remember that he tried to let Pete stay alive.
It's good to see them working through things. He's never quite so rude to her again.
What impresses me most of all is how Rose doesn't let him shove her around, how she stands up for herself, and at the same time, she willingly apologizes.... and instantly, INSTANTLY forgives him when he offers her his own apology. Her faith in him never wavers for an instant -- even when emotionally he's all over the place.
Nine may have exhibited some bad behaviour here but at least Rose is still Rose. She defends herself and doesn't let him get away with it. They acted more like a functional couple. Nine does those things (calling her an ape, taking the key) because he knows it will hurt her. She says what she does (he's not the most important man in her life) because she understands what hurts him as well. We always hurt the ones we love because we know them so intimately. She won't do this with Ten and the two of them end up running around like outer space Bonnie and Clyde in series 2. Some people loved that aspect of Ten/Rose, but I found it annoying. Rose never stood up to Ten's arrogance and we all know how well that went.
When should Rose have disagreed with Ten in s2? Other than maybe the Harriet Jones thing, I can't think of any instances where they should have clashed. Most of Ten's hubris shows itself after Rose is out of the picture.
That's true, but Girl in the Fireplace... is a pretty anomalous episode written by someone who didn't seem, IMO, to really "get" Rose's character (or Ten's), so I find it hard to think of that episode as an accurate example of their dynamic.
I rewatched it recently with some people and mid-way through we were like "that sounds like an Eleven line" or "that sounds like an Amy line" and then we were like "........wait."
So basically as far as I can tell Moffat was just writing Eleven, Amy and Rory pre-emptively.
to me, sadly, there are threads in Ten's psyche that show up in GitF and totally reappear.
For example: notice the parallels between his "drunken" reappearance after the dacquiri party, with his staggering out of the Tardis onto the Ood planet at the beginning of End of Time.
Then too, his (over)willingness to sacrifice his happiness with Rose on behalf of a greater good -- in this case, the preservation of Reinette within the historical timelines.
Also, his vanity at having powerful women admire him. Well, really, I forgive him that one!!
I don't so much argue with what he did in GitF, more with the careless disregard of how he did it. Just a few explanations or precautions and it would have been an ep way more in character.
For example: notice the parallels between his "drunken" reappearance after the dacquiri party, with his staggering out of the Tardis onto the Ood planet at the beginning of End of Time.
Yeah, but in EOT it's clearly a sign that he's falling apart. I think it was just meant to be lulzy in GITF, and I think it is out of character for him to go on luzly drunken shenanigans while Rose and Mickey are in danger.
Then too, his (over)willingness to sacrifice his happiness with Rose on behalf of a greater good -- in this case, the preservation of Reinette within the historical timelines.
IDK, if anything this is lacking to me in the episode -- he seemed a bit too eager to get himself stranded, and like you said, a couple lines of dialogue could easily have fixed things like the "leaving Rose and Mickey apparently stranded" issue. But ultimately the episode is being sold to me as a tragic love story between Reinette and Ten that develops in under 40 minutes and in the middle of a season-long love story between Rose and Ten, and I just don't think it fits. I also don't think Rose behaves at all like herself, really, so... it's pretty easy for me to write this episode off as not a good place to look for textual evidence of standard characterization.
Well, a lot has been made of the parallels between the way Nine sends Rose home from Satellite Five and the way he sends her to the parallel u. from Canary Wharf. And then again when he exiles her with Cloen and leaves himself in misery, to slowly lost all sense of boundaries. It's so sad the way he doesn't learn.
They do behave pretty badly in the Werewolf ep -- enough so that Victoria establishes Torchwood -- thereby creating Canary Wharf. It's a sad loop.
TV drama, as a serial form, is always going to draw out the conflict. The Rose/Doctor love affair, so full of intense devotion, is wonderful fodder for speculation and opportunities to diverge from canon into Happily Ever After. I think Ten's worst behavior when he still had Rose around was with Reinette, and I've already happily rewritten that one to my satisfaction. :P
Trying to impress her, yeah -- but then accusing her of traveling with him with this scheme in mind -- calling her stupid more than once -- taking her Tardis key -- he's a mess! What impresses me most of all is how Rose doesn't let him shove her around, how she stands up for herself, and at the same time, she willingly apologizes.... and instantly, INSTANTLY forgives him when he offers her his own apology. Her faith in him never wavers for an instant -- even when emotionally he's all over the place.
I guess one thing in this ep is how the Doctor's characteristic arrogance gets a big slap in the face when the ptimadactyls show up to sterilize the planet. He's not used to making such egregious mistakes. a ptimadactyl Actually Ate Him. and he would've stayed dead too, except Pete sacrificed himself.
I love the little throw away bit in this, how Rose assumes her Dad would never change the world -- and of course Alt Pete is over there inviting world leaders to parties and running Torchwood. :D
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It's good to see them working through things. He's never quite so rude to her again.
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Nine may have exhibited some bad behaviour here but at least Rose is still Rose. She defends herself and doesn't let him get away with it. They acted more like a functional couple. Nine does those things (calling her an ape, taking the key) because he knows it will hurt her. She says what she does (he's not the most important man in her life) because she understands what hurts him as well. We always hurt the ones we love because we know them so intimately. She won't do this with Ten and the two of them end up running around like outer space Bonnie and Clyde in series 2. Some people loved that aspect of Ten/Rose, but I found it annoying. Rose never stood up to Ten's arrogance and we all know how well that went.
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So basically as far as I can tell Moffat was just writing Eleven, Amy and Rory pre-emptively.
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There's definitly an Eleven, Amy, Rory feel about the episode. Damn Moffat.
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For example: notice the parallels between his "drunken" reappearance after the dacquiri party, with his staggering out of the Tardis onto the Ood planet at the beginning of End of Time.
Then too, his (over)willingness to sacrifice his happiness with Rose on behalf of a greater good -- in this case, the preservation of Reinette within the historical timelines.
Also, his vanity at having powerful women admire him. Well, really, I forgive him that one!!
I don't so much argue with what he did in GitF, more with the careless disregard of how he did it. Just a few explanations or precautions and it would have been an ep way more in character.
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Yeah, but in EOT it's clearly a sign that he's falling apart. I think it was just meant to be lulzy in GITF, and I think it is out of character for him to go on luzly drunken shenanigans while Rose and Mickey are in danger.
Then too, his (over)willingness to sacrifice his happiness with Rose on behalf of a greater good -- in this case, the preservation of Reinette within the historical timelines.
IDK, if anything this is lacking to me in the episode -- he seemed a bit too eager to get himself stranded, and like you said, a couple lines of dialogue could easily have fixed things like the "leaving Rose and Mickey apparently stranded" issue. But ultimately the episode is being sold to me as a tragic love story between Reinette and Ten that develops in under 40 minutes and in the middle of a season-long love story between Rose and Ten, and I just don't think it fits. I also don't think Rose behaves at all like herself, really, so... it's pretty easy for me to write this episode off as not a good place to look for textual evidence of standard characterization.
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They do behave pretty badly in the Werewolf ep -- enough so that Victoria establishes Torchwood -- thereby creating Canary Wharf. It's a sad loop.
TV drama, as a serial form, is always going to draw out the conflict. The Rose/Doctor love affair, so full of intense devotion, is wonderful fodder for speculation and opportunities to diverge from canon into Happily Ever After. I think Ten's worst behavior when he still had Rose around was with Reinette, and I've already happily rewritten that one to my satisfaction. :P
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