Can I just say? This episode Bothers me so much. This is Nine's worst moment in my opinion, and I hope you guys know by now how much I love him.
This whole mess was totally not Rose's fault. She specifically asks him if it would be breaking the laws of Time for her to go back to visit her dying Dad, and he doesn't tell her the risks......
Rose (a bit petulantly, granted): All right then if we can't, if it's against the laws of time or something, then never mind, just leave it-- Doctor (breezily) -- no, I can do anything. I'm just more worried about you. Rose: I wanna see him. Doctor: Your wish is my command -- but be careful what you wish for!
The Doctor very well knows the laws of Time. He very well knows better than to muck about like this. How dare he set Rose up like this and then condemn her for making a mistake!!!
I think he's just trying to feel his way along, see what he can get away with, now that no other Time Lords are breathing down his neck all the time, and then when he realizes they're not there anymore to pull his fat out of the fire -- and he's faced with these voracious ptimadactyls that he's never even seen before -- he gets angry and blames it on Rose.
I want to understand his motives in human terms. I mean, I get that he succumbs to Rose's sorrow and her tears -- but he even admits "it's a very bad idea, two sets of us being here at the same time!"
It was up to him not to let this happen. He needed to pull the plug after the first attempt -- or not let her visit her dad's death day at all. He's the Time Lord, and she's just a brave little human who doesn't get the laws of Time.
I think she's perfectly right during their fight in the flat: Rose: It wasn't some big plan -- I saw it happening and I thought, I can stop it. Doctor: I did it again -- I picked another Stupid Ape -- it's not about showing you the Universe, it's about the Universe doing something for you. Rose: So it's okay when you go to other times and you save people's lives but when it's me saving my dad Doctor: I know what I'm doing -- you don't!
oh yeah Doctor? because it certainly doesn't look like it from here.
Doctor: two sets of us being there made that a vulnerable point [duh!!] Rose: but he's alive! Doctor: My entire planet died, my whole family -- do you think it never occurred to me to go back and save them?
well yeah, you totally would if it weren't for the time lock, I dare say, right???? He's never been a respecter of time laws and most of his family, Susan's family, is in Gallifreyan backtime where he broke the law to go anyway.
Then when he demands the Tardis key back, essentially threatening to leave her there outside of her own time? VERY BAD FORM, DOCTOR. She was totally in bounds to challenge him on that one though she did cut pretty deep with that sharp tongue.
The redeeming moment is here: Doctor: Don't Touch the Baby! Rose: I'm not stupid! Doctor: You coulda fooled me!! All right. I'm sorry. I wasn't really gonna leave you on your own. Rose: I know. Doctor: between you and me I haven't got a plan. no idea. No way out. Rose: You'll think of something. Doctor: [...] there's nothing I can do to stop them. There used to be laws stopping this kind of thing from happening. My people would have stopped this. But they're all gone. And now I'm going the same way. Rose: If I'd realized -- Doctor: Just --- tell me you're sorry. Rose: I am. I'm sorry! The Doctor presses his palm against her cheek, then completely beams at her and gives her a big hug.
It's almost as though this whole thing is a test for him -- to feel out what he can and can't do, what laws he can break or not. But it also feels like a way for him to bind Rose closer to him -- he wants to grant her wish even though he knows it's a bad plan, he lets her have a second chance even though it's crazy risky, he fights with her, accusing her of planning the whole thing and taking back the key -- and this big "I forgive you" gesture -- which in a strange way feels like she's apologizing for his loss of Gallifrey. o_0
Please, I'm more than ready to hear rebuttals. Anyone got good fixit for this ep??
I don't think it's so much a test for him as it is his ego and trying to impress this girl. He's in love with her already and basically goes and does a big stupid thing to impress her. What HE SHOULD HAVE done was to warn her that her Father had to stay dead. He never told her that. Maybe he really didn't think she would try to save him but if I were Rose, I would have done the same thing. The difference between the human and the alien, I guess. I think they both make really stupid choices in this episode but find common ground in their compassion for each other.
What I try to keep paramount in my mind is how emotionally raw Nine is. Even after all this time with Rose -- this is ep 8 after all -- he's still slips right onto the edge of rage when things go wrong. I guess, you know, the destruction of Gallifrey is still right there for him all the time. :(
Trying to impress her, yeah -- but then accusing her of traveling with him with this scheme in mind -- calling her stupid more than once -- taking her Tardis key -- he's a mess! What impresses me most of all is how Rose doesn't let him shove her around, how she stands up for herself, and at the same time, she willingly apologizes.... and instantly, INSTANTLY forgives him when he offers her his own apology. Her faith in him never wavers for an instant -- even when emotionally he's all over the place.
I guess one thing in this ep is how the Doctor's characteristic arrogance gets a big slap in the face when the ptimadactyls show up to sterilize the planet. He's not used to making such egregious mistakes. a ptimadactyl Actually Ate Him. and he would've stayed dead too, except Pete sacrificed himself.
I love the little throw away bit in this, how Rose assumes her Dad would never change the world -- and of course Alt Pete is over there inviting world leaders to parties and running Torchwood. :D
I think a lot of what you have to say is why I love the episode so much. It deepens their relationship and characterization. For me, it also shows his vulnerability. He's blaming Rose when really he blames himself. His actions also reveal how deeply emotionally affected he is by her. Let's not forget that he tried to fix it so her father could stay alive when he know how to save the world by letting Pete die and didn't act or say anything. He tried to find another way. I also love how Rose KNOWS how much she means to the Doctor and that he wouldn't ACTUALLY leave her (as he soon as he realized the danger, he went running for Rose). The Doctor was just having a bit of a tantrum (when things didn't go the way he expected) and she knew it. This episode, because they worked through some of their emotional baggage (on both their ends), came all that closer which is a great lead in to the romance of episodes nine and ten all the way up to the finale.
"He's blaming Rose when really he blames himself." --I perceive that as well, so I'm glad it's there for you too. :) It is important to remember that he tried to let Pete stay alive.
It's good to see them working through things. He's never quite so rude to her again.
What impresses me most of all is how Rose doesn't let him shove her around, how she stands up for herself, and at the same time, she willingly apologizes.... and instantly, INSTANTLY forgives him when he offers her his own apology. Her faith in him never wavers for an instant -- even when emotionally he's all over the place.
Nine may have exhibited some bad behaviour here but at least Rose is still Rose. She defends herself and doesn't let him get away with it. They acted more like a functional couple. Nine does those things (calling her an ape, taking the key) because he knows it will hurt her. She says what she does (he's not the most important man in her life) because she understands what hurts him as well. We always hurt the ones we love because we know them so intimately. She won't do this with Ten and the two of them end up running around like outer space Bonnie and Clyde in series 2. Some people loved that aspect of Ten/Rose, but I found it annoying. Rose never stood up to Ten's arrogance and we all know how well that went.
When should Rose have disagreed with Ten in s2? Other than maybe the Harriet Jones thing, I can't think of any instances where they should have clashed. Most of Ten's hubris shows itself after Rose is out of the picture.
That's true, but Girl in the Fireplace... is a pretty anomalous episode written by someone who didn't seem, IMO, to really "get" Rose's character (or Ten's), so I find it hard to think of that episode as an accurate example of their dynamic.
I rewatched it recently with some people and mid-way through we were like "that sounds like an Eleven line" or "that sounds like an Amy line" and then we were like "........wait."
So basically as far as I can tell Moffat was just writing Eleven, Amy and Rory pre-emptively.
to me, sadly, there are threads in Ten's psyche that show up in GitF and totally reappear.
For example: notice the parallels between his "drunken" reappearance after the dacquiri party, with his staggering out of the Tardis onto the Ood planet at the beginning of End of Time.
Then too, his (over)willingness to sacrifice his happiness with Rose on behalf of a greater good -- in this case, the preservation of Reinette within the historical timelines.
Also, his vanity at having powerful women admire him. Well, really, I forgive him that one!!
I don't so much argue with what he did in GitF, more with the careless disregard of how he did it. Just a few explanations or precautions and it would have been an ep way more in character.
This whole mess was totally not Rose's fault. She specifically asks him if it would be breaking the laws of Time for her to go back to visit her dying Dad, and he doesn't tell her the risks......
Rose (a bit petulantly, granted): All right then if we can't, if it's against the laws of time or something, then never mind, just leave it--
Doctor (breezily) -- no, I can do anything. I'm just more worried about you.
Rose: I wanna see him.
Doctor: Your wish is my command -- but be careful what you wish for!
The Doctor very well knows the laws of Time. He very well knows better than to muck about like this. How dare he set Rose up like this and then condemn her for making a mistake!!!
I think he's just trying to feel his way along, see what he can get away with, now that no other Time Lords are breathing down his neck all the time, and then when he realizes they're not there anymore to pull his fat out of the fire -- and he's faced with these voracious ptimadactyls that he's never even seen before -- he gets angry and blames it on Rose.
I want to understand his motives in human terms. I mean, I get that he succumbs to Rose's sorrow and her tears -- but he even admits "it's a very bad idea, two sets of us being here at the same time!"
It was up to him not to let this happen. He needed to pull the plug after the first attempt -- or not let her visit her dad's death day at all. He's the Time Lord, and she's just a brave little human who doesn't get the laws of Time.
I think she's perfectly right during their fight in the flat:
Rose: It wasn't some big plan -- I saw it happening and I thought, I can stop it.
Doctor: I did it again -- I picked another Stupid Ape -- it's not about showing you the Universe, it's about the Universe doing something for you.
Rose: So it's okay when you go to other times and you save people's lives but when it's me saving my dad
Doctor: I know what I'm doing -- you don't!
oh yeah Doctor? because it certainly doesn't look like it from here.
Doctor: two sets of us being there made that a vulnerable point [duh!!]
Rose: but he's alive!
Doctor: My entire planet died, my whole family -- do you think it never occurred to me to go back and save them?
well yeah, you totally would if it weren't for the time lock, I dare say, right???? He's never been a respecter of time laws and most of his family, Susan's family, is in Gallifreyan backtime where he broke the law to go anyway.
Then when he demands the Tardis key back, essentially threatening to leave her there outside of her own time? VERY BAD FORM, DOCTOR. She was totally in bounds to challenge him on that one though she did cut pretty deep with that sharp tongue.
The redeeming moment is here:
Doctor: Don't Touch the Baby!
Rose: I'm not stupid!
Doctor: You coulda fooled me!! All right. I'm sorry. I wasn't really gonna leave you on your own.
Rose: I know.
Doctor: between you and me I haven't got a plan. no idea. No way out.
Rose: You'll think of something.
Doctor: [...] there's nothing I can do to stop them. There used to be laws stopping this kind of thing from happening. My people would have stopped this. But they're all gone. And now I'm going the same way.
Rose: If I'd realized --
Doctor: Just --- tell me you're sorry.
Rose: I am. I'm sorry!
The Doctor presses his palm against her cheek, then completely beams at her and gives her a big hug.
It's almost as though this whole thing is a test for him -- to feel out what he can and can't do, what laws he can break or not. But it also feels like a way for him to bind Rose closer to him -- he wants to grant her wish even though he knows it's a bad plan, he lets her have a second chance even though it's crazy risky, he fights with her, accusing her of planning the whole thing and taking back the key -- and this big "I forgive you" gesture -- which in a strange way feels like she's apologizing for his loss of Gallifrey. o_0
Please, I'm more than ready to hear rebuttals. Anyone got good fixit for this ep??
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Trying to impress her, yeah -- but then accusing her of traveling with him with this scheme in mind -- calling her stupid more than once -- taking her Tardis key -- he's a mess! What impresses me most of all is how Rose doesn't let him shove her around, how she stands up for herself, and at the same time, she willingly apologizes.... and instantly, INSTANTLY forgives him when he offers her his own apology. Her faith in him never wavers for an instant -- even when emotionally he's all over the place.
I guess one thing in this ep is how the Doctor's characteristic arrogance gets a big slap in the face when the ptimadactyls show up to sterilize the planet. He's not used to making such egregious mistakes. a ptimadactyl Actually Ate Him. and he would've stayed dead too, except Pete sacrificed himself.
I love the little throw away bit in this, how Rose assumes her Dad would never change the world -- and of course Alt Pete is over there inviting world leaders to parties and running Torchwood. :D
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It's good to see them working through things. He's never quite so rude to her again.
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Nine may have exhibited some bad behaviour here but at least Rose is still Rose. She defends herself and doesn't let him get away with it. They acted more like a functional couple. Nine does those things (calling her an ape, taking the key) because he knows it will hurt her. She says what she does (he's not the most important man in her life) because she understands what hurts him as well. We always hurt the ones we love because we know them so intimately. She won't do this with Ten and the two of them end up running around like outer space Bonnie and Clyde in series 2. Some people loved that aspect of Ten/Rose, but I found it annoying. Rose never stood up to Ten's arrogance and we all know how well that went.
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So basically as far as I can tell Moffat was just writing Eleven, Amy and Rory pre-emptively.
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There's definitly an Eleven, Amy, Rory feel about the episode. Damn Moffat.
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For example: notice the parallels between his "drunken" reappearance after the dacquiri party, with his staggering out of the Tardis onto the Ood planet at the beginning of End of Time.
Then too, his (over)willingness to sacrifice his happiness with Rose on behalf of a greater good -- in this case, the preservation of Reinette within the historical timelines.
Also, his vanity at having powerful women admire him. Well, really, I forgive him that one!!
I don't so much argue with what he did in GitF, more with the careless disregard of how he did it. Just a few explanations or precautions and it would have been an ep way more in character.
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