Kaoru Guitar History Interview Pt. 1 of 2.
Kaoru
Guitar History Interview Pt. 1 of 2.
Kaoru could be said to be the brain on the sound aspect for DIR EN GREY.
Following each work, change and evolution
Have been accomplished by this sound creator but
Back in high school, the joy of producing big sound for the first time with a band
Has not been forgotten by him, even now.
That, became Kaoru’s biggest momentum.
Seeing HIDE-san, I wanted to play guitar, I wanted to be like him.
―Before you laid your hands on guitar, you must have had a trigger that made you like rock (music); what was that?
Kaoru: I bought a record for the first time elementary school, and that was Seikima II’s single, “Rouningyou No Yakata” (note: House of Wax), and at that time, I was in a state where I didn’t even know the word rock, but when I saw Seikima II on television, I was like, “What is that!?” After that, I went off to Onyanko Club (オニャン子クラブ[kitty club], was a very popular female idol group back in the1980s. ), and I was a normal elementary school student (laugh). But when I became a third-year student in junior high school, around me, bands like BOØWY, Barbie Boys, and Princess Princess was popular, so I was also listening to them as well. During that time, a new student came in, and our homes were nearby, so we used to hang out. That guy was a real metal head, and he was also an audio otaku (note: オタク, in this sense, it probably meant geek). He’s a junior high school student, but he had an incredible audio equipment and a tremendous number of music records. Out of tons of stuff he made me listen, the very first one that clicked for me was DEAD END.
―Was that DEAD END’s album during their Indies?
Kaoru: Yes ,”DEAD LINE”. Also, the first major album, “GHOST OF ROMANCE” was already released at that time. If you look at music magazines, DEAD END would be on there a lot. But rather than getting into them, I thought of them as being somewhat cool. But, that being the catalyst, I had him dub other records onto cassette tapes. Back then, there was normal or high position where tapes had grades. The ones at his house were all the premium grade metal tapes (laugh).
―As it is expected from an audio otaku!
Kaoru: On top of that, out of the metal tapes, they were white and heavy, and he used a 46-minute tape that cost 1500 yen (laugh). I listened to Kinniku Shoujo Tai, GASTUNK, and E.Z.O., and LIP CREAM and Hijyou Kaidan (note: Emergency Stairs) as well. Before them, I listened to Michael Jackson and other foreign music, but I didn’t really understand English in the songs, so first the Japanese ones (songs). Among them, it had X’s “VANISHING VISION” there.
―You’ve encountered your biggest catalyst there?
Kaoru: No, at the time, it didn’t lead up to that. I thought there were a couple of good songs there, but at first, I couldn’t stand their looks and melodies. It’s fierce and fast. But DEAD END wasn’t too fast and the melodies were nice so it was easy to listen. And when I entered high school in April 1989, X released their first major album, “BLUE BLOOD,” and for some reason, I went to buy it with my friend on the release date. When I listened to it, what is this? I was attacked by a sensation I’ve never felt before. I couldn’t keep myself calm and I had this impulse of wanting to do something. All of the sudden from here, I wanted to do a band.
―You weren’t satisfied from just listening, and in your near future, you wanted to be like them?
Kaoru: I didn’t say that I wanted to be like that, but I just wanted to do a band. After the album (BLUE BLOOD) was released, a week later, X had live at Naka Hall (note: Middle Hall) in Osaka Kousei Nenkin Hall, and the tickets were sold out, but I went to the venue anyways. I took actions this way. As I went to the actual place, there was a scalper guy that came up to me asking, “How much ya got?” I had 4 thousand yen with me. He told me there’s no way [to sell a ticket to Kaoru] (laugh). But, I gazed around at the audience thinking these kinds of people came and watched X. That day, Naka Hall was X and at the Dai (Big) Hall, BUCK-TICK was playing.
―That’s a loud pair then.
Kaoru: I know (laugh). And, when it was curtain-rise, the scalper guy from before came up to me and gave me the ticket telling me 4 thousand yen was fine. The seating was on the first floor all the way back. From there, I saw X’s live for the first time, and out of all the members, my eyes were glued to HIDE-san. What is that person? From that moment, my feelings went to HIDE-san. Until then, when I listened to DEAD END, it was MORRIES-san where my eyes (note: this may be too figurative, but he means his attention) only went to vocalists. The band’s sound still didn’t reach into my ears. But after seeing HIDE-SAN, I wanted to play guitar, I wanted to be like him.
I just wanted to touch it. I would sleep while I held on to my guitar.
―But your money was gone after the ticket fee, and you must’ve not had any money to buy a guitar, no? How did you obtain your first guitar?
Kaoru: I thought of doing guitar, so I first went to the instrument store, right. It wasn’t HIDE-san’s model, but they told me they had a Fernandez’s MG shape for a cheap price. But it was already full on pre-order and I couldn’t buy it. But I saved up my otoshidama (note: money given in New Years from your parents and relatives) and allowance, and pre-ordered it. Once I thought I finally got my guitar, they told me it was going to be delivered a year after, so what should I do (laugh)? At that time, a different friend from junior high school told me he has an older sister that had a guitar she used to use. That’s how I obtained my first guitar.
―What kind of guitar was it?
Kaoru: Tokai strut type. But, that was in a condition where it didn’t have any strings on, and I decided to begin on how to put strings on first. The only thing is that I didn’t know how to do it, and once, I gave up (laugh). I left it alone for about a month. But I wanted to play after all, so I decided to work on it again. I didn’t even have a tuning meter and the strings were all plastered up (note: ベロンベロン[beron, beron] is used to express how drunk a person is, but in this case I guess Kaoru was saying it was all out of tune), so I just pretended to play on it. And, I went to buy a tuning meter at an instrument shop in my neighborhood, but the store owner guy showed me a tuning fork (laugh). What is this? What am I going to do with a twisted stick (laugh)? Then, I gave up again. When I went to the audio otaku’s place, he was already playing guitar and had a tuning meter. I borrowed it, and my guitar was finally in a condition to be able to play. It took me 2~3 months before I could actually begin playing the guitar (laugh).
―I think it would have been better if you asked the audio otaku for help from the beginning (laugh).
Kaoru: I knew he was playing guitar. But just when I entered high school, he wasn’t into metal but hardcore. When I visited his home, instead of playing the guitar, he was slamming it onto his bed (laugh). He’s no good, he’s in a different world than me, and I gradually had lesser acquaintance with him (laugh). He was scary too. But I visited his home numerous times for tuning.
―But, wasn’t your hurdle high for playing guitar? Even more since you were trying to play X (song).
Kaoru: It was really high. Instrument-wise, I’ve never really played anything before, and during music class I was a guy that fooled around. Even if I saw a score on a music magazine, I didn’t know how to read the TAB score. So I would sort of hold the guitar only trying to act cool, and I slowly learned how to hold the chords. Playing a song was very far away. Plus, when you look at the score for X’s songs, they’re all black (laugh). They’re fast and have a lot of tones and all black with musical notes (laugh). Once I learned how to read the TAB score, I could sort of play the first arpeggio for “WEEK END”. I wasn’t even sure if I played it, but the sound sounded like it was close.
―Music magazine was your textbook?
Kaoru: Yes, yes. I would read guitar introductory lesson or the magazine’s project, wondering if I should be playing like this.
―Apart from your friend that went into hardcore (music), did you have other friends that played guitar?
Kaoru: There was one that played when I was in junior high school, but I wasn’t really good friends with that guy. I thought there would be more people playing when I went to high school, but there really weren’t any people at all. Before guitar or band, you know how you want a friend that you could talk about your favorite music right? I wanted a shared topic that I could have fun together. Since there weren’t any people like that, I thought I needed to manipulate them. I would call people to my house, make them listen to a lot of albums, and make them motivated to do a band. And, I would recommend a person saying you should play bass. “If you became friends with him (note: Kaoru), you’ll turn into heavy metal”; so, in my class, they called me “hebimeta (note: ヘビメタ, Japanese abbreviated term for heavy metal), tiger’s lair” (laugh).
―That was because there was a show like that on television (laugh). What a fond memory~!
Kaoru: Right (laugh). But gradually, guys that liked rock increased, and during the school festival, we decided to do a band together. Around that time, the MG I ordered finally came. It took 2~3 months to start playing guitar and I didn’t feel like playing because I probably didn’t like the guitar I was playing. Once the MG arrived, I kept playing all night from morning to night.
―Were you the devil of practice?
Kaoru: No, it didn’t feel like practice. I just wanted to keep touching my guitar.
―Touching the guitar naturally turned into practice, and were you able to play repetitive riffs you couldn’t play before?
Kaoru: I wonder. I learned how to play while I looked at the score too. And then, I said that we should go into the studio together. I decided single-handedly on people’s parts. Of course, I play guitar. You do drums. And you do bass.
―At the time, what kind of songs did you have in your repertoire?
Kaoru: Back then, we did Kamaitachi (note: かまいたち, a band name that means a sharp cut from a vacuum in air), D’ERLANGER, and ZI: KILL. Not just me, but it had to be something others could play, especially a song that the vocal could sing, so we couldn’t do X’s songs. I still couldn’t play them either. So we focused on something that could be sung and covered easily.
―Did you practice at home with raw sounds?
Kaoru: No, I waited about a year until my MG arrived. Because of that, the instrument store gave me a mini-amp as a bonus. When I played my guitar, wow, it’s distorted. This is it, this is the sound (laugh). I had that joy, so I played every day. I couldn’t turn on my amp late at night, but after coming back from school, I would get my amp out and played. I played with the raw sound (note: without amp) at night and slept while I held onto my guitar.
―You became to like guitar to that extent!?
Kaoru: At that moment, I thought to myself. I will be a person that will go up on stage.
―Did you always have a monomaniacal part from a long time ago?
Kaoru: Yes, I think I’m the type that gets into things easily. Once I like something, I would like it all the way. Whether it was a hobby or sports, once I liked something, I liked it forever. But since my childhood, I was the type that didn’t like, “Practice, study” or “I have to do something.” I was in a soccer team, but when some told me, “come to practice,” I didn’t want to go. If they told me, “let’s do soccer,” I was the type that would gladly go. So not even once, I’ve never thought that I was playing guitar as practice. Well, of course I do, but feeling-wise (laugh).
―When you continue playing and liking guitar that far, your skills must have improved.
Kaoru: Well, I don’t think I became better, but I was able to play power chord riff and small phrases. But it’s no fun playing alone. I definitely wanted to make sounds as a band. So I dragged my friend and entered a studio. When we went into the studio, they had a Marshall amp placed there (laugh).
―That itself must have been moving.
Kaoru: Of course. When I played with the Marshall on, this is it (laugh). When I first entered the studio, my sound didn’t match with the other members, but it was really fun. Strumming on huge sound; this is a band. When it came to that, we would be like when should we go in (the studio) next, and we began going there 3 times a week.
―Around what time was your first stage experience when you were in front of an audience?
Kaoru: Around my third year in high school… My high school was full of scabby people and we didn’t even have a gymnasium. We had an annual school festival, but we didn’t have a stage to do a live. So we made a stage inside a classroom and brought in amps. We called up a senpai (note: upperclassmen) that did a band, and in my third year in high school, I did a show.
― Were you psyched up and put on HIDE-like makeup, wear a saree like HIDE, and do your best?
Kaoru: I didn’t wear a saree, but I put on makeup, made my hair stand up, and sprayed color on it. Everyone wore blackish clothes.
―Did the audience react well?
Kaoru: They didn’t react well~ (laugh). Because we got all the people that liked rock into a band, so the other people weren’t interested at all (laugh).
―So it was a small gathering where only the ones that were kicked off from hebimeta, tiger’s lair were there (laugh)?
Kaoru: Right, right. From the other people’s perspective, they’re (Kaoru and other in bands) doing something. Even people close to us didn’t react well and only the people doing the bands were enjoying themselves. But from there, we borrowed a studio that had a stage, called senpai’s band as well as kouhai’s (note: underclassmen) bands, sold tickets, and began to do lives here and there.
―Like a pioneer, you guys were like, let’s just create an environment to do lives.
Kaoru: Right, right (laugh). As a band, we began to have more songs we were able to do. I also was able to listen and cover them (songs), and I began to be able to play various stuffs. But the songs we do as a band had to have scores. Around that time, as members, we took photos, put letters using a cutting sheet and make ads. Back then, when you buy a cassette tape, it came with an alphabet sticker right? I put them on, enlarged them with the photocopy machine to make it look like a logo, and there, I would use scenery photos from the magazine to make a collage. I made a band’s ad, yes―, kind of a thing (laugh).
―You do have a monomaniacal personality.
Kaoru: I loved making something that way.
―I could understand how everything that had to do with band was fun though.
Kaoru: Right, it was fun being in a band. I liked photocopying scores for all the members. I also like to decide on the set list too.
―What you were doing then don’t seem to differ from what you do today. You must have begun to exert your leader temperament around this time (laugh).
Kaoru: I guess so (laugh). But after graduating from high school, there were people that weren’t interested in bands anymore, and in the end, the band from high school died out in the course of time. Even then, senpai and other students from my class still wanted to do band, and we got together and created a band that was going to do original songs.
On stage, I don’t change.
Since long time ago, I always head banged (laugh).
―It was a band with elites from the local area then. But, how did you make your original songs?
Kaoru: Among the members, there were these senpais that were brothers. Both of them did classic guitar from an early age, but later on, they liked metal and began to play electric guitar. And they were really good. Actually, the younger brother was better with guitar, but the older brother and I told him, “We’ll do guitar and you do bass” (laugh). If the younger brother played guitar, then people will find out that we (Kaoru and older brother) suck at playing. We were that kind of band, but since I still didn’t know how to make an original (songs), at first, it was an accompaniment situation. First, I would play guitar while creating chord progression, and put a melody on from there. As I would practice together with the band, I tried to put some kind of a riff-like beat in it.
―Did you have any band you used as a reference?
Kaoru: Definitely X. Even if I couldn’t do beats like X, I at least began to understand their chords. Using their chord progression as a reference, I made all kinds of stuff. Some songs had a formal beauty like scent.
―Well ,that must be true. With classical chord progression, you were also in a band that had a guitarist trained in classical guitar.
Kaoru: Basically, the guitar was just harmony. From intro riff, it was already a harmony (laugh). But the vocalist liked L’ Arc~ en ~Ciel, and he wanted to sing something more pop. So the original song turned out to have a strange feeling.
―Even when you weren’t aiming for that, when you fused all the member’s favorite things, it naturally became strange.
Kaoru: Strange thing… right, right (laugh). This was the band before the previous band of Dir en grey (note: La Sadies) where at the time, I got to do a show with the band Die-kun was doing.
―Then after graduating from high school, your live house activity began then.
Kaoru: No, I actually had a 2 year blank period. We were all hopeless people where we need to get employed or since we’re struggling to make a living, we need to get a part-time job. Because of that, we couldn’t start our band activity right away. In the meantime, we would go into the studio bit by bit, and sometimes we borrowed the studio to do a live. That continued for 2 years, and we decided it’s time to go into live houses. So we began to book local live houses and during this activity, I got to do a show with Die-kun’s band.
―Appearing in live houses with original songs, there must have been a different feeling from the band during your high school period. Were you moved on how this was what you were going for?
Kaoru: Because we did original songs, we had this sense of how we’re doing our own thing. I didn’t like it if we didn’t have a heavy element, so when we made original songs, I definitely wanted to add a heavy development to it. And rhythm definitely had to be fast. I was always curious on how the people that came to watch our shows reacted. But on stage, I didn’t really change from then. During live, I head banged all the way (laugh). In that band, my stage position was the kamite (note: right-hand side of stage from the audience’s view), which is different form today. My hair was really long, so I had it stood up. And, I would bang my head and go crazy.
―Even when you were in indies, you were already a consummate musician then.
Kaoru: I was doing it that way. But around me, there would be what you call the visual-kei band as well as people that seemed to do beat rock, but there weren’t any band like us that sounded bulky but had harmony. We always didn’t belong anywhere. Among the members, I was the only one that had long hair. The brothers that liked metal also liked punk, so they would dress up in punk fashion. And, the vocalist had silky hair and had this aesthetic sense. After the live was over, when we talked to our booking manager, usually he/she told us, “I don’t really know what kind of band you guys are~” (laugh). “Maybe you guys should focus more (on musical direction).
―But you actually felt something solid right?
Kaoru: U~m, but I wonder. I think I was doubtful. If I were to question whether I was really doing the things I wanted, I wasn’t. I was going along with everyone else and I just put my favorite elements into them; concerning songs, lives, and even appearance too. We didn’t seem to exert a “this band is absolutely cool” atmosphere either. And, we decided to disband.
I play because I play. If I can’t play, I do it many times so that I can play.
―Was the reason from what you just said now?
Kaoru: No, they told me we should disband.
―On the contrary, were you afloat in the band?
Kaoru: Maybe (laugh). Personality-wise, I tend to dash through, and I think people around me couldn’t follow me. When we decided to disband, I got a phone call from the previous band’s leader (note: of La Sadies, so it’s Kisaki). In that band, Kyo, Die, and Shinya were there, and I ended up joining (laugh).
―You sound like it’s a bad happening (laugh). You got a sudden phone call, so your skill must have been well known in the roundabout, no?
Kaoru: Well~ that’s not true because that band wasn’t about skill. When they would post up their ad at live houses, they focused on how good they looked. It was about how well they appeared on stage. He seemed to be deciding members with those criteria. I think that’s why I got a call from him. I would go crazy on stage, my hair was long, and I had a full-fledged costume on. But, they told me that they have never been to my live, not once. They gave me a phone call just by looking at the ad and popularity. There couldn’t be a ruder offer than this (laugh).
―That’s true (laugh). Before joining your previous band, were you observing how the other members communicated?
Kaoru: No, they only had one song, so, let’s just make songs. With the band’s activity, the leader was taking charge, and I guess I took the leadership of arranging songs. If someone came up with an idea, we’d try it out, and develop from there. With a hazy feeling, we’d put in this kind of rhythm, let’s add on this development. I wasn’t composing songs, but I was in charge of connecting the members’ ideas and arranging them. But the ideas I said to the members seemed fresh to them, and everyone told me, “It’s fresh.”
―What kind of approach did you take?
Kaoru: It’s no different from today. We would constantly get riffs out. And the lives were taiban (note: 対バン. Literally means versus-band, and the word band is abbreviated to “ban”. This means that they’re doing shows with other bands.), so rehearsal becomes a battle with others. We weren’t a good band, so we needed to scare others with sound, so I would make a really big sound. I would have it really distorted and from top to bottom, it would sound like a wham. The first sound check was the fight. Once we made a gong sound (note: the original word was ゴーン[go-n], but I couldn’t really find the right word to fit this onomatopoeia.), if the other bands were wowed, we won for that day (laugh). It was a game plan to make them lose their motivation for the actual show.
―That’s such a mere makeshift tactic (laugh).
Kaoru: (laugh). There was also this too. At the time, I was using a highwatt, but during the live, the sound broke up. I was wondering why, and as it turns out, the sound was too loud, and the vibration made the speaker cable fall off (laugh). The speaker cabinet also kept going back because of the vibration on stage.
―That’s such a loud noise to the extent of being scary.
Kaoru: I was making sound that loud (laugh).
―I didn’t know you were such a loud guitarist, but at the time, the previous band was quite well known right?
Kaoru: The leader guy started to say that we should do something no one has ever done before. When I joined, a tour was decided, and told me to do it. It was with unknown bands in the Kansai area, but we sent out ads to live houses all over Japan and we even asked to make an ad on a magazine. We did 20 shows every month. That was the first tour for me. But on stage, I just made extremely loud noise, head banged, and went crazy (laugh).
―At the time, as a guitarist, other than the loud sound, was there anything that you didn’t want to lose against anyone?
Kaoru: Around me, there were many bands that made people listen to the song, but there weren’t too many heavy bands. So, what’s so fun about playing that? I thought, “Make sounds that would eat up the song.” I tried to play guitar that made me stand out, and if one were to say wicked, I constantly played wicked phrases. I would strum the riffs, and it was how much picking harmonics I would produce (laugh). I made a statement in that way. But I always considered riff to be important. Even in the band, I had this part where I was in charge of putting riffs. I would bring out heaviness with riff, and Die-kun would put in phrases. But I don’t think I was playing guitar thinking it as a guitar play. It was a tool to get violent. That’s what riffs were for. Really, I just kept head banging (laugh).
―When did you begin to be strict towards your guitar play?
Kaoru: Once Dir en grey formed. The talk about making a CD came up suddenly, so it was from there. Thinking of how it was really going to be CD and be placed in CD stores, I seriously began to think about the songs and my playing. When we began our song-making boot camp, I began to play guitar as guitar.
―Did you practice, which you really hate to do?
Kaoru: I don’t think it as practice. I would practice something I can’t play, but I don’t think that as practice. Like thinking of work as not being work, once you think it’s practice, I felt like my motivation would decline. I play guitar because I want to play. If I can’t play, I would do it many times until I’m able to play it… Well, I guess we call that practice (laugh).
It could be any process. As long as you could play a phrase filled with your feelings.
―Did you have a wall within yourself that you came across?
Kaoru: Well, that’s always the case. I still have it. Each time I make songs and do a live, there’s a wall. Basically, I consider myself to be bad at playing, and I think to myself, why can’t I play to this extent? Even if I’m able to play on a normal day, when I get up on stage, there are times when I can’t play. I get a huge stage fright.
―That’s unexpected. I never felt that way from you.
Kaoru: I never show myself to have a stage fright, but I get really nervous. On stage, I’m pretty stiff, even now. There has never been a show where I wasn’t nervous. I always get nervous. So recently, I get up on stage forgetting the feeling that we’re doing a live. Right before the show, it would be like, “Ah, it’s show time.” Being like that, I am still nervous, but I also feel somewhat relaxed. The last tour, “THE ROSE TRIMS AGAIN” was like that. Before getting up on stage, I would forget about the live, and I was able to play the guitar feeling relaxed. From 2008, I’m able to do it like this. Until 2007, I was really stiff in the dressing room and on stage too.
―Wow~. During 2007, you had many lives overseas. I’m not sure if it makes any difference because you listen to foreign music a lot, but many people say that foreign musicians (note: maybe in this case, they mean Western musicians) are definitely different. When you guys did shows together with bands over there, did you feel any difference?
Kaoru: Yes, I felt it before going, and even after going, there was certainly something different about it. In 2005, we went to Europe for the first time, and first, we did shows in Germany and France and we went to “Rock am Ring” afterwards. Out of those shows, “Rock am Ring” had the most different feeling. At that time, we did a show with all the worldly known bands. We were really small. If we were seeing things from a small place, our calibers were low too. We had to be in a condition to be able to receive anything. Looking at the people over there, really, they’re just as they are. They look like how they look off-stage, but even when they get up on stage, they have power. Before going up on stage, we would be, “Is it going to be all right”… , I’m sure people over there have that feeling too, but they’re big. It’s not the sound, but their presence on stage as a human being. I received an enormous shock there. Our caliber as a person that stands on stage was low. Really, we were just performing with our instruments. The power exerted from the body was incomparable. We had to exert a massive persuasion from ourselves.
―Hitting that kind of wall did you do something specific?
Kaoru: Maybe each one of us had it, but, especially towards myself. But if we talked as a band about it, we wouldn’t be able to do anything. So we didn’t talk about it. But I could tell looking at the members’ face. Their face would be like, “It’s different after all,” and some would have bitter expressions. One more thing, when I went there, I especially felt how we are who we are. I really felt that. There are various bands, and each band has something good about them. They really focused on that part the most, and all the bands definitely had a sense of winning if that good part came through. If we want to close up on that, then it’s best to trust ourselves. I thought about it afresh; regarding guitar phrase too. For people over there, my phrase is unique for them. I’m always asked about what I listened to, and who I looked upon to play guitar. I guess I have some uniqueness where they can’t find out my roots. That being said, it’s a good thing. I was really happy about those words. Even from a good guitarist, I was asked, “How are you playing this?” I would think, you’re better at playing guitar though. In that aspect, I have confidence, or I felt strongly, I should shape what’s flowing inside of me.
―You weren’t aware of your unique individuality until then?
Kaoru: No. I of course had a thought of wanting to play cool guitar phrases that would surprise listeners. But even if I thought so, I can’t make a phrase unless it flows inside my mind. Even if I had a sound that flowed in my mind, if I didn’t think it was cool, I wouldn’t think of playing it. If it was a fresh approach towards a song, then, that’s fine.
―How do you bring what is inside your mind to the point of creating a cool sound?
Kaoru: Well~, you could capture the song from the front, but there are many ways. If you were to capture from the front, you would have this kind of sound or phrase showing up. But if you capture them as if you’re imagining a curb, phrases that are slightly different appear. There are many observing points and perspectives and for this song, which is the best way. There, Shinya’s rhythm, Toshiya’s and Die’s phrases, and Kyo’s melody are there, and how would they join together and enliven the sounds? Or, how do the other phrases become alive? I think like that while I make it (songs). But recently, the songs begin with the main riff that I made, so by the song-making phase, my phrase is pretty much finished. Of course, during arrangement, I have part where I want to change, but many times, it’s how the others get onto my riffs. During arrangement, when I’m thinking of what to do next, Die-kun would put on a phrase, and the rhythm would mix. My songs tend to create a catalyst a lot. So when I’m fretting over a phrase, it equals to a fret over the song’s structure. If my phrase is decided, that section is decided. There, I get really distressed. I would think over the next development while the other members think about the development up to that point. I guess we progress that way. But when I go in too far and it becomes a difficult phrase, everyone tells me, “Isn’t it better to have a more understandable one (laugh)?” Of course, it depends on the song. If Die-kun brings in a song, I would think of how I would put it (note: riffs) on.
―Do you think of guitar phrases while you hold onto your guitar?
Kaoru: Yes. When I listen to a song and a phrase comes up in my mind, I would shape it with my guitar. Also, if Die-kun plays first, a sound or phrase would pop into my mind. Sometimes, I would play the keyboards and put in incomprehensible phrase and try to play that with guitar too. For example, I would cut up all my sampling materials and line them up, and if it became an interesting musical scale, I would turn it into a phrase so that I could play with one guitar. It could be any kind of process to reach the final shape. Whether it will be something that flows in your mind or something you played around with and made it. But out of them, it has to feel good when you are playing, sounds cool, and as a song, it has to be a phrase that you could put your feelings into. I wouldn’t want to play if it wasn’t like that, and I don’t want to let everyone hear it too. It has to be something where I could say confidently that I’m playing this phrase.
―For songs in “UROBOROS,” it was shaped on your way of arrangement of going back and forth.
Kaoru: That’s true. This time, song-making for me was a duel on how much I could exert myself more than ever. After all, when I would just make it on my own, something unique is produced. When we get into preproduction, that arrangement may progress according to that place’s atmosphere very frequently right? For example, if I’m just playing dashingly during preproduction, I would be thinking, how is this, but sometimes, the members would tell me, “That’s really good.” I would be thinking, it’s not that good. As the arrangement progresses, in the end, I want to change it and play a different phrase, but the members tell me, “Why did you change it (laugh)?” I would answer, “I don’t really like the one before,” they tell me, “We don’t really get this one.” In these moments, I feel troubled.
―Do you think from another view point?
Kaoru: Yep. Not the one before or the other one, but something different. And I torment over it again. If I think in a difficult manner, it really becomes difficult. But intuitively, if it springs to my mind, it could become easy. Rather than being easy, basically, it’s free. No matter how much the sound may be clashing, if you think that’s cool, that’s fine then. But if you do it this much, there’s your preference, the band’s color, and other things that come into play. Out of them, even if you want to make a choice, there are too many options, and it makes you wonder which one is best. And I distress over it. It wouldn’t be interesting if I do something that’s already been done before. If you were to play an expected phrase, how do you want this expected thing to be heard? That area is hard. For instance, say you play a normal arpeggio, how do you want to make that heard? Is it all right if you play like a normal da-la-la-la, or do you want your arpeggio to be heard with a more different sounding? Clarifying this within me becomes a crucial point.
―Then everything begins with an image after all.
Kaoru: Yes, I think the basic is how I definitely won’t be able to play unless the sound is ringing in my head. During the process of song-making, I would feel so-so during one stage, but when I record my guitar part, I need to clarify how I want it to sound, or I won’t be able to convert it into a tangible form. If you listen later, I don’t like it if I realize how I’m distressed when I’m playing, so I try to imagine how I want to sound in my mind, and imagining that feeling, I play.
―“UROBOROS” is a work packed with guitar phrases, but each phrase has a clear image. Your thoughts are also included.
Kaoru: Of course. Also, for this recording, KONI-YOUNG was our engineer and he said, “Here, it’s this kind of image,” and gave us ideas. I would play thinking of that image in my mind. And I would also get requests from him. “Play it with this image.” I would kind of imagine it and put in phrases that are close to that. Having a theory, how do you change it in an interesting way? If I only had my image, it wouldn’t join well, so what would I do together with Die-kun? I would listen on the use of sound on how the flow there should be in a phrase, and think of my phrase. Of course, everything is not like that. If I played from having a sudden inspiration, as long as it’s cool that’s fine. Having a theory, it’s how much you could go on an adventure that is fun too.
“UROBOROS” sealed in all the tunes we imagined at that point of time.
―In “UROBOROS,” including your past approaches, you were able to put a wide variety of yourself, no? It’s that prismatic.
Kaoru: There are root-like things I have listened until now, and something that’s absorbed in me is in it, because, I removed the thought of, “I should do it this way” from my head and made songs. I played the way I felt hoping it’s what others don’t have. But there are times when I couldn’t think of anything; nothing. What should I do? I really didn’t know what to do. During that time, I asked Die-kun about it. When Die-kun was having a hard time, he would ask me, “What do you think of this use of sound?” We would share ideas like that. And what was fresh for both guitarists was how the other members would say vaguely, “Can you put in guitar with this atmosphere?” It was fun playing and searching for that kind of phrase. An idea from someone that doesn’t know too much about guitar captures a point of view that is different from us. When I’m searching for this phrase, I become obstinate about it. I want them to say it’s cool. If the reaction I get from playing is “Um…,” then this is next, this time it’s this. I get the feeling of “I’m gonna do it.”
―But the song-making to recording for “UROBOROS” was a long period of six months… In contrast to bands overseas, it’s rather short.
Kaoru: For famous bands over there, it must be short. But having a lot of time doesn’t mean it’s a good thing either. If I thought I could still record, it will never end. I think it’s all right to put what you could now and what you feel currently. If we continued to make “UROBOROS” for another year, it would be a completely different album, and I wonder if that’s all right. You need to have a reality where it’s this album because it is released now. If I say in an interview, “This song was already made three years ago, and it was different from what it is now. But it was a cool song so I put it in;” it would be like what the hell is that. Even if that kind of production situation may happen, I will never make that kind of comment (laugh).
―“UROBOROS” is a great album, but here, is it better for me to say, “At this stage, this is definitely a good album (laugh?)”
Kaoru: I guess that’s it. Speaking of possibilities, I think there were more, but I have sealed all the guitar tunes I imagined for those songs during that the point of time. They are all what I believe to be the path where the current Dir en grey is heading.
―Speaking of where you should be heading, from now on, what do think you want to be?
Kaoru: A little while ago, I would have something to say, but now I don’t have any. What kind of person I want to be. But, I want people to think that I play guitar on stage. I’m not just playing for the sake of songs, but I am playing the guitar on stage.
―It would mean you just want to be who you are.
Kaoru: Ah, that’s true. I don’t really want to make a stance. What I want to play at times will change too. But I want to continue being the guitarist in a band. I didn’t think of being a guitarist at first, but I thought of wanting to do a band and chose guitar. And when I saw HIDE-san there, that was big too. When I first went into a studio and made an enormous sound, and thought how this was cool, I still haven’t forgotten that sensation. I can’t say for sure about the future, but say if I were to make a solo album, I’m not interested in that at all. What’s so fun about making a solo work with only guitar? I guess I like the band, the 5 members’ battling sounds. I want to play something that would make the 4 of them feel electrified.
Translation: Cammie
Guitar History Interview Pt. 1 of 2.
Kaoru could be said to be the brain on the sound aspect for DIR EN GREY.
Following each work, change and evolution
Have been accomplished by this sound creator but
Back in high school, the joy of producing big sound for the first time with a band
Has not been forgotten by him, even now.
That, became Kaoru’s biggest momentum.
Seeing HIDE-san, I wanted to play guitar, I wanted to be like him.
―Before you laid your hands on guitar, you must have had a trigger that made you like rock (music); what was that?
Kaoru: I bought a record for the first time elementary school, and that was Seikima II’s single, “Rouningyou No Yakata” (note: House of Wax), and at that time, I was in a state where I didn’t even know the word rock, but when I saw Seikima II on television, I was like, “What is that!?” After that, I went off to Onyanko Club (オニャン子クラブ[kitty club], was a very popular female idol group back in the1980s. ), and I was a normal elementary school student (laugh). But when I became a third-year student in junior high school, around me, bands like BOØWY, Barbie Boys, and Princess Princess was popular, so I was also listening to them as well. During that time, a new student came in, and our homes were nearby, so we used to hang out. That guy was a real metal head, and he was also an audio otaku (note: オタク, in this sense, it probably meant geek). He’s a junior high school student, but he had an incredible audio equipment and a tremendous number of music records. Out of tons of stuff he made me listen, the very first one that clicked for me was DEAD END.
―Was that DEAD END’s album during their Indies?
Kaoru: Yes ,”DEAD LINE”. Also, the first major album, “GHOST OF ROMANCE” was already released at that time. If you look at music magazines, DEAD END would be on there a lot. But rather than getting into them, I thought of them as being somewhat cool. But, that being the catalyst, I had him dub other records onto cassette tapes. Back then, there was normal or high position where tapes had grades. The ones at his house were all the premium grade metal tapes (laugh).
―As it is expected from an audio otaku!
Kaoru: On top of that, out of the metal tapes, they were white and heavy, and he used a 46-minute tape that cost 1500 yen (laugh). I listened to Kinniku Shoujo Tai, GASTUNK, and E.Z.O., and LIP CREAM and Hijyou Kaidan (note: Emergency Stairs) as well. Before them, I listened to Michael Jackson and other foreign music, but I didn’t really understand English in the songs, so first the Japanese ones (songs). Among them, it had X’s “VANISHING VISION” there.
―You’ve encountered your biggest catalyst there?
Kaoru: No, at the time, it didn’t lead up to that. I thought there were a couple of good songs there, but at first, I couldn’t stand their looks and melodies. It’s fierce and fast. But DEAD END wasn’t too fast and the melodies were nice so it was easy to listen. And when I entered high school in April 1989, X released their first major album, “BLUE BLOOD,” and for some reason, I went to buy it with my friend on the release date. When I listened to it, what is this? I was attacked by a sensation I’ve never felt before. I couldn’t keep myself calm and I had this impulse of wanting to do something. All of the sudden from here, I wanted to do a band.
―You weren’t satisfied from just listening, and in your near future, you wanted to be like them?
Kaoru: I didn’t say that I wanted to be like that, but I just wanted to do a band. After the album (BLUE BLOOD) was released, a week later, X had live at Naka Hall (note: Middle Hall) in Osaka Kousei Nenkin Hall, and the tickets were sold out, but I went to the venue anyways. I took actions this way. As I went to the actual place, there was a scalper guy that came up to me asking, “How much ya got?” I had 4 thousand yen with me. He told me there’s no way [to sell a ticket to Kaoru] (laugh). But, I gazed around at the audience thinking these kinds of people came and watched X. That day, Naka Hall was X and at the Dai (Big) Hall, BUCK-TICK was playing.
―That’s a loud pair then.
Kaoru: I know (laugh). And, when it was curtain-rise, the scalper guy from before came up to me and gave me the ticket telling me 4 thousand yen was fine. The seating was on the first floor all the way back. From there, I saw X’s live for the first time, and out of all the members, my eyes were glued to HIDE-san. What is that person? From that moment, my feelings went to HIDE-san. Until then, when I listened to DEAD END, it was MORRIES-san where my eyes (note: this may be too figurative, but he means his attention) only went to vocalists. The band’s sound still didn’t reach into my ears. But after seeing HIDE-SAN, I wanted to play guitar, I wanted to be like him.
I just wanted to touch it. I would sleep while I held on to my guitar.
―But your money was gone after the ticket fee, and you must’ve not had any money to buy a guitar, no? How did you obtain your first guitar?
Kaoru: I thought of doing guitar, so I first went to the instrument store, right. It wasn’t HIDE-san’s model, but they told me they had a Fernandez’s MG shape for a cheap price. But it was already full on pre-order and I couldn’t buy it. But I saved up my otoshidama (note: money given in New Years from your parents and relatives) and allowance, and pre-ordered it. Once I thought I finally got my guitar, they told me it was going to be delivered a year after, so what should I do (laugh)? At that time, a different friend from junior high school told me he has an older sister that had a guitar she used to use. That’s how I obtained my first guitar.
―What kind of guitar was it?
Kaoru: Tokai strut type. But, that was in a condition where it didn’t have any strings on, and I decided to begin on how to put strings on first. The only thing is that I didn’t know how to do it, and once, I gave up (laugh). I left it alone for about a month. But I wanted to play after all, so I decided to work on it again. I didn’t even have a tuning meter and the strings were all plastered up (note: ベロンベロン[beron, beron] is used to express how drunk a person is, but in this case I guess Kaoru was saying it was all out of tune), so I just pretended to play on it. And, I went to buy a tuning meter at an instrument shop in my neighborhood, but the store owner guy showed me a tuning fork (laugh). What is this? What am I going to do with a twisted stick (laugh)? Then, I gave up again. When I went to the audio otaku’s place, he was already playing guitar and had a tuning meter. I borrowed it, and my guitar was finally in a condition to be able to play. It took me 2~3 months before I could actually begin playing the guitar (laugh).
―I think it would have been better if you asked the audio otaku for help from the beginning (laugh).
Kaoru: I knew he was playing guitar. But just when I entered high school, he wasn’t into metal but hardcore. When I visited his home, instead of playing the guitar, he was slamming it onto his bed (laugh). He’s no good, he’s in a different world than me, and I gradually had lesser acquaintance with him (laugh). He was scary too. But I visited his home numerous times for tuning.
―But, wasn’t your hurdle high for playing guitar? Even more since you were trying to play X (song).
Kaoru: It was really high. Instrument-wise, I’ve never really played anything before, and during music class I was a guy that fooled around. Even if I saw a score on a music magazine, I didn’t know how to read the TAB score. So I would sort of hold the guitar only trying to act cool, and I slowly learned how to hold the chords. Playing a song was very far away. Plus, when you look at the score for X’s songs, they’re all black (laugh). They’re fast and have a lot of tones and all black with musical notes (laugh). Once I learned how to read the TAB score, I could sort of play the first arpeggio for “WEEK END”. I wasn’t even sure if I played it, but the sound sounded like it was close.
―Music magazine was your textbook?
Kaoru: Yes, yes. I would read guitar introductory lesson or the magazine’s project, wondering if I should be playing like this.
―Apart from your friend that went into hardcore (music), did you have other friends that played guitar?
Kaoru: There was one that played when I was in junior high school, but I wasn’t really good friends with that guy. I thought there would be more people playing when I went to high school, but there really weren’t any people at all. Before guitar or band, you know how you want a friend that you could talk about your favorite music right? I wanted a shared topic that I could have fun together. Since there weren’t any people like that, I thought I needed to manipulate them. I would call people to my house, make them listen to a lot of albums, and make them motivated to do a band. And, I would recommend a person saying you should play bass. “If you became friends with him (note: Kaoru), you’ll turn into heavy metal”; so, in my class, they called me “hebimeta (note: ヘビメタ, Japanese abbreviated term for heavy metal), tiger’s lair” (laugh).
―That was because there was a show like that on television (laugh). What a fond memory~!
Kaoru: Right (laugh). But gradually, guys that liked rock increased, and during the school festival, we decided to do a band together. Around that time, the MG I ordered finally came. It took 2~3 months to start playing guitar and I didn’t feel like playing because I probably didn’t like the guitar I was playing. Once the MG arrived, I kept playing all night from morning to night.
―Were you the devil of practice?
Kaoru: No, it didn’t feel like practice. I just wanted to keep touching my guitar.
―Touching the guitar naturally turned into practice, and were you able to play repetitive riffs you couldn’t play before?
Kaoru: I wonder. I learned how to play while I looked at the score too. And then, I said that we should go into the studio together. I decided single-handedly on people’s parts. Of course, I play guitar. You do drums. And you do bass.
―At the time, what kind of songs did you have in your repertoire?
Kaoru: Back then, we did Kamaitachi (note: かまいたち, a band name that means a sharp cut from a vacuum in air), D’ERLANGER, and ZI: KILL. Not just me, but it had to be something others could play, especially a song that the vocal could sing, so we couldn’t do X’s songs. I still couldn’t play them either. So we focused on something that could be sung and covered easily.
―Did you practice at home with raw sounds?
Kaoru: No, I waited about a year until my MG arrived. Because of that, the instrument store gave me a mini-amp as a bonus. When I played my guitar, wow, it’s distorted. This is it, this is the sound (laugh). I had that joy, so I played every day. I couldn’t turn on my amp late at night, but after coming back from school, I would get my amp out and played. I played with the raw sound (note: without amp) at night and slept while I held onto my guitar.
―You became to like guitar to that extent!?
Kaoru: At that moment, I thought to myself. I will be a person that will go up on stage.
―Did you always have a monomaniacal part from a long time ago?
Kaoru: Yes, I think I’m the type that gets into things easily. Once I like something, I would like it all the way. Whether it was a hobby or sports, once I liked something, I liked it forever. But since my childhood, I was the type that didn’t like, “Practice, study” or “I have to do something.” I was in a soccer team, but when some told me, “come to practice,” I didn’t want to go. If they told me, “let’s do soccer,” I was the type that would gladly go. So not even once, I’ve never thought that I was playing guitar as practice. Well, of course I do, but feeling-wise (laugh).
―When you continue playing and liking guitar that far, your skills must have improved.
Kaoru: Well, I don’t think I became better, but I was able to play power chord riff and small phrases. But it’s no fun playing alone. I definitely wanted to make sounds as a band. So I dragged my friend and entered a studio. When we went into the studio, they had a Marshall amp placed there (laugh).
―That itself must have been moving.
Kaoru: Of course. When I played with the Marshall on, this is it (laugh). When I first entered the studio, my sound didn’t match with the other members, but it was really fun. Strumming on huge sound; this is a band. When it came to that, we would be like when should we go in (the studio) next, and we began going there 3 times a week.
―Around what time was your first stage experience when you were in front of an audience?
Kaoru: Around my third year in high school… My high school was full of scabby people and we didn’t even have a gymnasium. We had an annual school festival, but we didn’t have a stage to do a live. So we made a stage inside a classroom and brought in amps. We called up a senpai (note: upperclassmen) that did a band, and in my third year in high school, I did a show.
― Were you psyched up and put on HIDE-like makeup, wear a saree like HIDE, and do your best?
Kaoru: I didn’t wear a saree, but I put on makeup, made my hair stand up, and sprayed color on it. Everyone wore blackish clothes.
―Did the audience react well?
Kaoru: They didn’t react well~ (laugh). Because we got all the people that liked rock into a band, so the other people weren’t interested at all (laugh).
―So it was a small gathering where only the ones that were kicked off from hebimeta, tiger’s lair were there (laugh)?
Kaoru: Right, right. From the other people’s perspective, they’re (Kaoru and other in bands) doing something. Even people close to us didn’t react well and only the people doing the bands were enjoying themselves. But from there, we borrowed a studio that had a stage, called senpai’s band as well as kouhai’s (note: underclassmen) bands, sold tickets, and began to do lives here and there.
―Like a pioneer, you guys were like, let’s just create an environment to do lives.
Kaoru: Right, right (laugh). As a band, we began to have more songs we were able to do. I also was able to listen and cover them (songs), and I began to be able to play various stuffs. But the songs we do as a band had to have scores. Around that time, as members, we took photos, put letters using a cutting sheet and make ads. Back then, when you buy a cassette tape, it came with an alphabet sticker right? I put them on, enlarged them with the photocopy machine to make it look like a logo, and there, I would use scenery photos from the magazine to make a collage. I made a band’s ad, yes―, kind of a thing (laugh).
―You do have a monomaniacal personality.
Kaoru: I loved making something that way.
―I could understand how everything that had to do with band was fun though.
Kaoru: Right, it was fun being in a band. I liked photocopying scores for all the members. I also like to decide on the set list too.
―What you were doing then don’t seem to differ from what you do today. You must have begun to exert your leader temperament around this time (laugh).
Kaoru: I guess so (laugh). But after graduating from high school, there were people that weren’t interested in bands anymore, and in the end, the band from high school died out in the course of time. Even then, senpai and other students from my class still wanted to do band, and we got together and created a band that was going to do original songs.
On stage, I don’t change.
Since long time ago, I always head banged (laugh).
―It was a band with elites from the local area then. But, how did you make your original songs?
Kaoru: Among the members, there were these senpais that were brothers. Both of them did classic guitar from an early age, but later on, they liked metal and began to play electric guitar. And they were really good. Actually, the younger brother was better with guitar, but the older brother and I told him, “We’ll do guitar and you do bass” (laugh). If the younger brother played guitar, then people will find out that we (Kaoru and older brother) suck at playing. We were that kind of band, but since I still didn’t know how to make an original (songs), at first, it was an accompaniment situation. First, I would play guitar while creating chord progression, and put a melody on from there. As I would practice together with the band, I tried to put some kind of a riff-like beat in it.
―Did you have any band you used as a reference?
Kaoru: Definitely X. Even if I couldn’t do beats like X, I at least began to understand their chords. Using their chord progression as a reference, I made all kinds of stuff. Some songs had a formal beauty like scent.
―Well ,that must be true. With classical chord progression, you were also in a band that had a guitarist trained in classical guitar.
Kaoru: Basically, the guitar was just harmony. From intro riff, it was already a harmony (laugh). But the vocalist liked L’ Arc~ en ~Ciel, and he wanted to sing something more pop. So the original song turned out to have a strange feeling.
―Even when you weren’t aiming for that, when you fused all the member’s favorite things, it naturally became strange.
Kaoru: Strange thing… right, right (laugh). This was the band before the previous band of Dir en grey (note: La Sadies) where at the time, I got to do a show with the band Die-kun was doing.
―Then after graduating from high school, your live house activity began then.
Kaoru: No, I actually had a 2 year blank period. We were all hopeless people where we need to get employed or since we’re struggling to make a living, we need to get a part-time job. Because of that, we couldn’t start our band activity right away. In the meantime, we would go into the studio bit by bit, and sometimes we borrowed the studio to do a live. That continued for 2 years, and we decided it’s time to go into live houses. So we began to book local live houses and during this activity, I got to do a show with Die-kun’s band.
―Appearing in live houses with original songs, there must have been a different feeling from the band during your high school period. Were you moved on how this was what you were going for?
Kaoru: Because we did original songs, we had this sense of how we’re doing our own thing. I didn’t like it if we didn’t have a heavy element, so when we made original songs, I definitely wanted to add a heavy development to it. And rhythm definitely had to be fast. I was always curious on how the people that came to watch our shows reacted. But on stage, I didn’t really change from then. During live, I head banged all the way (laugh). In that band, my stage position was the kamite (note: right-hand side of stage from the audience’s view), which is different form today. My hair was really long, so I had it stood up. And, I would bang my head and go crazy.
―Even when you were in indies, you were already a consummate musician then.
Kaoru: I was doing it that way. But around me, there would be what you call the visual-kei band as well as people that seemed to do beat rock, but there weren’t any band like us that sounded bulky but had harmony. We always didn’t belong anywhere. Among the members, I was the only one that had long hair. The brothers that liked metal also liked punk, so they would dress up in punk fashion. And, the vocalist had silky hair and had this aesthetic sense. After the live was over, when we talked to our booking manager, usually he/she told us, “I don’t really know what kind of band you guys are~” (laugh). “Maybe you guys should focus more (on musical direction).
―But you actually felt something solid right?
Kaoru: U~m, but I wonder. I think I was doubtful. If I were to question whether I was really doing the things I wanted, I wasn’t. I was going along with everyone else and I just put my favorite elements into them; concerning songs, lives, and even appearance too. We didn’t seem to exert a “this band is absolutely cool” atmosphere either. And, we decided to disband.
I play because I play. If I can’t play, I do it many times so that I can play.
―Was the reason from what you just said now?
Kaoru: No, they told me we should disband.
―On the contrary, were you afloat in the band?
Kaoru: Maybe (laugh). Personality-wise, I tend to dash through, and I think people around me couldn’t follow me. When we decided to disband, I got a phone call from the previous band’s leader (note: of La Sadies, so it’s Kisaki). In that band, Kyo, Die, and Shinya were there, and I ended up joining (laugh).
―You sound like it’s a bad happening (laugh). You got a sudden phone call, so your skill must have been well known in the roundabout, no?
Kaoru: Well~ that’s not true because that band wasn’t about skill. When they would post up their ad at live houses, they focused on how good they looked. It was about how well they appeared on stage. He seemed to be deciding members with those criteria. I think that’s why I got a call from him. I would go crazy on stage, my hair was long, and I had a full-fledged costume on. But, they told me that they have never been to my live, not once. They gave me a phone call just by looking at the ad and popularity. There couldn’t be a ruder offer than this (laugh).
―That’s true (laugh). Before joining your previous band, were you observing how the other members communicated?
Kaoru: No, they only had one song, so, let’s just make songs. With the band’s activity, the leader was taking charge, and I guess I took the leadership of arranging songs. If someone came up with an idea, we’d try it out, and develop from there. With a hazy feeling, we’d put in this kind of rhythm, let’s add on this development. I wasn’t composing songs, but I was in charge of connecting the members’ ideas and arranging them. But the ideas I said to the members seemed fresh to them, and everyone told me, “It’s fresh.”
―What kind of approach did you take?
Kaoru: It’s no different from today. We would constantly get riffs out. And the lives were taiban (note: 対バン. Literally means versus-band, and the word band is abbreviated to “ban”. This means that they’re doing shows with other bands.), so rehearsal becomes a battle with others. We weren’t a good band, so we needed to scare others with sound, so I would make a really big sound. I would have it really distorted and from top to bottom, it would sound like a wham. The first sound check was the fight. Once we made a gong sound (note: the original word was ゴーン[go-n], but I couldn’t really find the right word to fit this onomatopoeia.), if the other bands were wowed, we won for that day (laugh). It was a game plan to make them lose their motivation for the actual show.
―That’s such a mere makeshift tactic (laugh).
Kaoru: (laugh). There was also this too. At the time, I was using a highwatt, but during the live, the sound broke up. I was wondering why, and as it turns out, the sound was too loud, and the vibration made the speaker cable fall off (laugh). The speaker cabinet also kept going back because of the vibration on stage.
―That’s such a loud noise to the extent of being scary.
Kaoru: I was making sound that loud (laugh).
―I didn’t know you were such a loud guitarist, but at the time, the previous band was quite well known right?
Kaoru: The leader guy started to say that we should do something no one has ever done before. When I joined, a tour was decided, and told me to do it. It was with unknown bands in the Kansai area, but we sent out ads to live houses all over Japan and we even asked to make an ad on a magazine. We did 20 shows every month. That was the first tour for me. But on stage, I just made extremely loud noise, head banged, and went crazy (laugh).
―At the time, as a guitarist, other than the loud sound, was there anything that you didn’t want to lose against anyone?
Kaoru: Around me, there were many bands that made people listen to the song, but there weren’t too many heavy bands. So, what’s so fun about playing that? I thought, “Make sounds that would eat up the song.” I tried to play guitar that made me stand out, and if one were to say wicked, I constantly played wicked phrases. I would strum the riffs, and it was how much picking harmonics I would produce (laugh). I made a statement in that way. But I always considered riff to be important. Even in the band, I had this part where I was in charge of putting riffs. I would bring out heaviness with riff, and Die-kun would put in phrases. But I don’t think I was playing guitar thinking it as a guitar play. It was a tool to get violent. That’s what riffs were for. Really, I just kept head banging (laugh).
―When did you begin to be strict towards your guitar play?
Kaoru: Once Dir en grey formed. The talk about making a CD came up suddenly, so it was from there. Thinking of how it was really going to be CD and be placed in CD stores, I seriously began to think about the songs and my playing. When we began our song-making boot camp, I began to play guitar as guitar.
―Did you practice, which you really hate to do?
Kaoru: I don’t think it as practice. I would practice something I can’t play, but I don’t think that as practice. Like thinking of work as not being work, once you think it’s practice, I felt like my motivation would decline. I play guitar because I want to play. If I can’t play, I would do it many times until I’m able to play it… Well, I guess we call that practice (laugh).
It could be any process. As long as you could play a phrase filled with your feelings.
―Did you have a wall within yourself that you came across?
Kaoru: Well, that’s always the case. I still have it. Each time I make songs and do a live, there’s a wall. Basically, I consider myself to be bad at playing, and I think to myself, why can’t I play to this extent? Even if I’m able to play on a normal day, when I get up on stage, there are times when I can’t play. I get a huge stage fright.
―That’s unexpected. I never felt that way from you.
Kaoru: I never show myself to have a stage fright, but I get really nervous. On stage, I’m pretty stiff, even now. There has never been a show where I wasn’t nervous. I always get nervous. So recently, I get up on stage forgetting the feeling that we’re doing a live. Right before the show, it would be like, “Ah, it’s show time.” Being like that, I am still nervous, but I also feel somewhat relaxed. The last tour, “THE ROSE TRIMS AGAIN” was like that. Before getting up on stage, I would forget about the live, and I was able to play the guitar feeling relaxed. From 2008, I’m able to do it like this. Until 2007, I was really stiff in the dressing room and on stage too.
―Wow~. During 2007, you had many lives overseas. I’m not sure if it makes any difference because you listen to foreign music a lot, but many people say that foreign musicians (note: maybe in this case, they mean Western musicians) are definitely different. When you guys did shows together with bands over there, did you feel any difference?
Kaoru: Yes, I felt it before going, and even after going, there was certainly something different about it. In 2005, we went to Europe for the first time, and first, we did shows in Germany and France and we went to “Rock am Ring” afterwards. Out of those shows, “Rock am Ring” had the most different feeling. At that time, we did a show with all the worldly known bands. We were really small. If we were seeing things from a small place, our calibers were low too. We had to be in a condition to be able to receive anything. Looking at the people over there, really, they’re just as they are. They look like how they look off-stage, but even when they get up on stage, they have power. Before going up on stage, we would be, “Is it going to be all right”… , I’m sure people over there have that feeling too, but they’re big. It’s not the sound, but their presence on stage as a human being. I received an enormous shock there. Our caliber as a person that stands on stage was low. Really, we were just performing with our instruments. The power exerted from the body was incomparable. We had to exert a massive persuasion from ourselves.
―Hitting that kind of wall did you do something specific?
Kaoru: Maybe each one of us had it, but, especially towards myself. But if we talked as a band about it, we wouldn’t be able to do anything. So we didn’t talk about it. But I could tell looking at the members’ face. Their face would be like, “It’s different after all,” and some would have bitter expressions. One more thing, when I went there, I especially felt how we are who we are. I really felt that. There are various bands, and each band has something good about them. They really focused on that part the most, and all the bands definitely had a sense of winning if that good part came through. If we want to close up on that, then it’s best to trust ourselves. I thought about it afresh; regarding guitar phrase too. For people over there, my phrase is unique for them. I’m always asked about what I listened to, and who I looked upon to play guitar. I guess I have some uniqueness where they can’t find out my roots. That being said, it’s a good thing. I was really happy about those words. Even from a good guitarist, I was asked, “How are you playing this?” I would think, you’re better at playing guitar though. In that aspect, I have confidence, or I felt strongly, I should shape what’s flowing inside of me.
―You weren’t aware of your unique individuality until then?
Kaoru: No. I of course had a thought of wanting to play cool guitar phrases that would surprise listeners. But even if I thought so, I can’t make a phrase unless it flows inside my mind. Even if I had a sound that flowed in my mind, if I didn’t think it was cool, I wouldn’t think of playing it. If it was a fresh approach towards a song, then, that’s fine.
―How do you bring what is inside your mind to the point of creating a cool sound?
Kaoru: Well~, you could capture the song from the front, but there are many ways. If you were to capture from the front, you would have this kind of sound or phrase showing up. But if you capture them as if you’re imagining a curb, phrases that are slightly different appear. There are many observing points and perspectives and for this song, which is the best way. There, Shinya’s rhythm, Toshiya’s and Die’s phrases, and Kyo’s melody are there, and how would they join together and enliven the sounds? Or, how do the other phrases become alive? I think like that while I make it (songs). But recently, the songs begin with the main riff that I made, so by the song-making phase, my phrase is pretty much finished. Of course, during arrangement, I have part where I want to change, but many times, it’s how the others get onto my riffs. During arrangement, when I’m thinking of what to do next, Die-kun would put on a phrase, and the rhythm would mix. My songs tend to create a catalyst a lot. So when I’m fretting over a phrase, it equals to a fret over the song’s structure. If my phrase is decided, that section is decided. There, I get really distressed. I would think over the next development while the other members think about the development up to that point. I guess we progress that way. But when I go in too far and it becomes a difficult phrase, everyone tells me, “Isn’t it better to have a more understandable one (laugh)?” Of course, it depends on the song. If Die-kun brings in a song, I would think of how I would put it (note: riffs) on.
―Do you think of guitar phrases while you hold onto your guitar?
Kaoru: Yes. When I listen to a song and a phrase comes up in my mind, I would shape it with my guitar. Also, if Die-kun plays first, a sound or phrase would pop into my mind. Sometimes, I would play the keyboards and put in incomprehensible phrase and try to play that with guitar too. For example, I would cut up all my sampling materials and line them up, and if it became an interesting musical scale, I would turn it into a phrase so that I could play with one guitar. It could be any kind of process to reach the final shape. Whether it will be something that flows in your mind or something you played around with and made it. But out of them, it has to feel good when you are playing, sounds cool, and as a song, it has to be a phrase that you could put your feelings into. I wouldn’t want to play if it wasn’t like that, and I don’t want to let everyone hear it too. It has to be something where I could say confidently that I’m playing this phrase.
―For songs in “UROBOROS,” it was shaped on your way of arrangement of going back and forth.
Kaoru: That’s true. This time, song-making for me was a duel on how much I could exert myself more than ever. After all, when I would just make it on my own, something unique is produced. When we get into preproduction, that arrangement may progress according to that place’s atmosphere very frequently right? For example, if I’m just playing dashingly during preproduction, I would be thinking, how is this, but sometimes, the members would tell me, “That’s really good.” I would be thinking, it’s not that good. As the arrangement progresses, in the end, I want to change it and play a different phrase, but the members tell me, “Why did you change it (laugh)?” I would answer, “I don’t really like the one before,” they tell me, “We don’t really get this one.” In these moments, I feel troubled.
―Do you think from another view point?
Kaoru: Yep. Not the one before or the other one, but something different. And I torment over it again. If I think in a difficult manner, it really becomes difficult. But intuitively, if it springs to my mind, it could become easy. Rather than being easy, basically, it’s free. No matter how much the sound may be clashing, if you think that’s cool, that’s fine then. But if you do it this much, there’s your preference, the band’s color, and other things that come into play. Out of them, even if you want to make a choice, there are too many options, and it makes you wonder which one is best. And I distress over it. It wouldn’t be interesting if I do something that’s already been done before. If you were to play an expected phrase, how do you want this expected thing to be heard? That area is hard. For instance, say you play a normal arpeggio, how do you want to make that heard? Is it all right if you play like a normal da-la-la-la, or do you want your arpeggio to be heard with a more different sounding? Clarifying this within me becomes a crucial point.
―Then everything begins with an image after all.
Kaoru: Yes, I think the basic is how I definitely won’t be able to play unless the sound is ringing in my head. During the process of song-making, I would feel so-so during one stage, but when I record my guitar part, I need to clarify how I want it to sound, or I won’t be able to convert it into a tangible form. If you listen later, I don’t like it if I realize how I’m distressed when I’m playing, so I try to imagine how I want to sound in my mind, and imagining that feeling, I play.
―“UROBOROS” is a work packed with guitar phrases, but each phrase has a clear image. Your thoughts are also included.
Kaoru: Of course. Also, for this recording, KONI-YOUNG was our engineer and he said, “Here, it’s this kind of image,” and gave us ideas. I would play thinking of that image in my mind. And I would also get requests from him. “Play it with this image.” I would kind of imagine it and put in phrases that are close to that. Having a theory, how do you change it in an interesting way? If I only had my image, it wouldn’t join well, so what would I do together with Die-kun? I would listen on the use of sound on how the flow there should be in a phrase, and think of my phrase. Of course, everything is not like that. If I played from having a sudden inspiration, as long as it’s cool that’s fine. Having a theory, it’s how much you could go on an adventure that is fun too.
“UROBOROS” sealed in all the tunes we imagined at that point of time.
―In “UROBOROS,” including your past approaches, you were able to put a wide variety of yourself, no? It’s that prismatic.
Kaoru: There are root-like things I have listened until now, and something that’s absorbed in me is in it, because, I removed the thought of, “I should do it this way” from my head and made songs. I played the way I felt hoping it’s what others don’t have. But there are times when I couldn’t think of anything; nothing. What should I do? I really didn’t know what to do. During that time, I asked Die-kun about it. When Die-kun was having a hard time, he would ask me, “What do you think of this use of sound?” We would share ideas like that. And what was fresh for both guitarists was how the other members would say vaguely, “Can you put in guitar with this atmosphere?” It was fun playing and searching for that kind of phrase. An idea from someone that doesn’t know too much about guitar captures a point of view that is different from us. When I’m searching for this phrase, I become obstinate about it. I want them to say it’s cool. If the reaction I get from playing is “Um…,” then this is next, this time it’s this. I get the feeling of “I’m gonna do it.”
―But the song-making to recording for “UROBOROS” was a long period of six months… In contrast to bands overseas, it’s rather short.
Kaoru: For famous bands over there, it must be short. But having a lot of time doesn’t mean it’s a good thing either. If I thought I could still record, it will never end. I think it’s all right to put what you could now and what you feel currently. If we continued to make “UROBOROS” for another year, it would be a completely different album, and I wonder if that’s all right. You need to have a reality where it’s this album because it is released now. If I say in an interview, “This song was already made three years ago, and it was different from what it is now. But it was a cool song so I put it in;” it would be like what the hell is that. Even if that kind of production situation may happen, I will never make that kind of comment (laugh).
―“UROBOROS” is a great album, but here, is it better for me to say, “At this stage, this is definitely a good album (laugh?)”
Kaoru: I guess that’s it. Speaking of possibilities, I think there were more, but I have sealed all the guitar tunes I imagined for those songs during that the point of time. They are all what I believe to be the path where the current Dir en grey is heading.
―Speaking of where you should be heading, from now on, what do think you want to be?
Kaoru: A little while ago, I would have something to say, but now I don’t have any. What kind of person I want to be. But, I want people to think that I play guitar on stage. I’m not just playing for the sake of songs, but I am playing the guitar on stage.
―It would mean you just want to be who you are.
Kaoru: Ah, that’s true. I don’t really want to make a stance. What I want to play at times will change too. But I want to continue being the guitarist in a band. I didn’t think of being a guitarist at first, but I thought of wanting to do a band and chose guitar. And when I saw HIDE-san there, that was big too. When I first went into a studio and made an enormous sound, and thought how this was cool, I still haven’t forgotten that sensation. I can’t say for sure about the future, but say if I were to make a solo album, I’m not interested in that at all. What’s so fun about making a solo work with only guitar? I guess I like the band, the 5 members’ battling sounds. I want to play something that would make the 4 of them feel electrified.
Translation: Cammie