Sacrilegium Diei Solis
"Sacrilegium Diei Solis"
"Sunday Sacrilege"
Interesting post by PZ:
Sunday Sacrilege: The Joke
There's a time to take religion seriously, and a time to laugh at it. Sometimes we have to do both at the same time.
Yes.
But:
Then there are the hard-edged ones (the current favored term for these is "dicks") who point out that you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into, and that those fond beliefs are being used to hurt people, and must be strongly criticized and mocked. And that, really, religion is a clown circus, and asking us not to point and laugh is unnatural and dishonest.
I think PZ misses the mark here.
In my experience, when people say things like, "you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into," they are including some important qualifiers.
It is true that you can reason some people out of indoctrination. Such things happen all the time.
But you can't argue someone out of a position they didn't argue themselves into when dealing with the class of positions not subject to counterargument. Sometimes such a position is built upon, or in another important way connected to, some other position that is subject to argument, and when argument is applied, that is where we see people being reasoned out of indoctrination.
Here is the entire paragraph:
Unfortunately, right now, I see the atheist community needlessly split between two poles. There are the softies who complain that believers don't deserve ridicule, that hard truths and blunt speech and laughing at fervently held beliefs simply hardens hearts and drives people away, so we have to be sensitive and avoid confrontation; logic and gentle persuasion will win the day. Then there are the hard-edged ones (the current favored term for these is "dicks") who point out that you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into, and that those fond beliefs are being used to hurt people, and must be strongly criticized and mocked. And that, really, religion is a clown circus, and asking us not to point and laugh is unnatural and dishonest.
I think PZ's portrayal here of the "softies" is more accurate to real life than his portrayal here of the "dicks." I have met more people who could be described to be members of the former group than people who could be described to be members of the latter. PZ, who seems to be thought of as a prime example of a "dick," doesn't really conform to his description very well.
"Sunday Sacrilege"
Interesting post by PZ:
Sunday Sacrilege: The Joke
There's a time to take religion seriously, and a time to laugh at it. Sometimes we have to do both at the same time.
Yes.
But:
Then there are the hard-edged ones (the current favored term for these is "dicks") who point out that you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into, and that those fond beliefs are being used to hurt people, and must be strongly criticized and mocked. And that, really, religion is a clown circus, and asking us not to point and laugh is unnatural and dishonest.
I think PZ misses the mark here.
In my experience, when people say things like, "you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into," they are including some important qualifiers.
It is true that you can reason some people out of indoctrination. Such things happen all the time.
But you can't argue someone out of a position they didn't argue themselves into when dealing with the class of positions not subject to counterargument. Sometimes such a position is built upon, or in another important way connected to, some other position that is subject to argument, and when argument is applied, that is where we see people being reasoned out of indoctrination.
Here is the entire paragraph:
Unfortunately, right now, I see the atheist community needlessly split between two poles. There are the softies who complain that believers don't deserve ridicule, that hard truths and blunt speech and laughing at fervently held beliefs simply hardens hearts and drives people away, so we have to be sensitive and avoid confrontation; logic and gentle persuasion will win the day. Then there are the hard-edged ones (the current favored term for these is "dicks") who point out that you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into, and that those fond beliefs are being used to hurt people, and must be strongly criticized and mocked. And that, really, religion is a clown circus, and asking us not to point and laugh is unnatural and dishonest.
I think PZ's portrayal here of the "softies" is more accurate to real life than his portrayal here of the "dicks." I have met more people who could be described to be members of the former group than people who could be described to be members of the latter. PZ, who seems to be thought of as a prime example of a "dick," doesn't really conform to his description very well.