Endgame thoughts
OK, I've seen it twice and I'm ready to talk. This is really, really long.
Loved it. There are some things I definitely didn't like; I'll get to those at the end.
I've been saying for years that everything in Endgame was foreshadowed, and I still believe it to be true.
Nat: There's red in my ledger. I wanna wipe it out. (Avengers)
Tony: I just finally know what I have to do. (Iron Man)
Cap (paraphrase): The guy who came out of the ice isn't the same guy that went in 70 years ago. (Age of Ultron)
Clint: Do you know what it's like to be unmade? (Avengers)
All the rest of this is in such random order, I can't even tell you. Here we go.
So some version of Loki has had the tesseract, and therefore the space stone, since the Battle of New York. I'm very happy about this, obviously. Does that mean he can travel through time, or just space? I mean. There are some arguments that it's all the same thing. IDK. MCU time/space is definitely not subject to any kind of Earth logic, so I'd say go crazy, fic writers.
This movie was all about Cap and Tony and I was THERE FOR IT. CAP IS FUCKING WORTHY. HE'S FUCKING WORTHY AND WE ALL KNEW IT. The sheer power. YOUR FAVES COULD NEVER. Unless your faves are Thor and Tony, in which case they totally did and could FOREVER. That entire battle scene was worth the price of admission. But Cap - the way he used MewMew to push his shield! This is a level of power from Cap I don't think anyone knew he was capable of - and it was awesome in the truest sense of the word. Thor's delighted, "I knew it!!" was the best thing I've ever seen. As was that moment when Cap had Stormbreaker, and Thor was like, you take the small one!! I died. :D
Cap clearly told Bucky what he planned to do before he entered the quantum tunnel, because their goodbye was very final. You don't say "I'll miss you, buddy" to someone who's coming back in 5 seconds, in the time you're experiencing. He was so sad. :/ And when he turned away after Cap didn't materialize, he smiled a small private smile - he wanted Steve to be happy. How could he not, after everything Steve sacrificed to make sure Bucky was given a chance to live and be a person again???
I also guarantee you, Bucky doesn't want the shield. He wants to rest. And there's no way Cap just went back and ONLY made time with Peggy. We know that in the MCU, past actions don't impact the present, thanks to the long explanation at the beginning from Bruce re how movies are wrong -- there's no way in fucking hell Cap didn't go and save Bucky, full stop, the end. Who else thinks the reason the front door was open was because Bucky was coming over for dinner? Surely not just me. *g*
In addition, Steve would have had to come back to the timeline this Sam and Bucky are in using the suit - he didn't live his life out in that timeline. Peggy in this timeline still married someone else, still had kids, still ran SHIELD. Peggy in Steve's timeline was with Steve, and Bucky probably was there too; when Steve was ready, he got in that quantum suit and GPSed back to that moment, to give the shield to Sam. Shoot, he might look so old because he waited til their KIDS were dead. He could come back when he wanted; Tony and Steve making a separate time jump without the tunnel proved that.
Steve probably had a shield Howard made for him, back in the PeggyandSteve timeline. It's still hard to parse, tho. If he saved himself, there'd be two of him. If he left himself in the ice but then went and saved Bucky WHICH YOU KNOW HE DID, that seems...kind of horrible. If he went back to 70's Peggy, that makes no sense to me, so that theory is right out. In the timeline where they buried Tony, they had Hank Pym, who could make all the particles they'd ever need. Steve probably had a good supply when he set off to restore the stones. He could have gone wherever. Whenever, technically.
Also and finally on this issue, past actions in the timeline not impacting the present has nothing to do with removing the infinity stones and causing a branch off of time. The infinity stones are the fabric of the universe, basically; remove them and time/possibly reality is altered, replace them and it's fine. Poking around in the past doesn't alter reality, which is fixed in your timeline. It's the old 'time is a fixed constant' vs 'time is an endless loop' vs 'time diverges constantly' argument. This seems to be a variation of time is a fixed constant + time diverges constantly. The timeline can be changed, but you're essentially living in a new timeline when you do so; you haven't changed your OWN ORIGINAL future, you've just changed the future you're now creating as you're living in the new timeline.
The more I think about it, the less sense it makes, but I'd rather be mad about Steve and Bucky, and I don't have the energy to do more than handwave the time travel stuff, too. *g*
PS to the BuckySam people, DID YOU SEE SAM'S COMFORTING HAND ON BUCKY'S SHOULDER AT TONY'S FUNERAL? And Sam looking to Bucky for the nod to take the shield?!?! The thing I'm sad about there is, Bucky never got to make amends, and you know that's something that mattered to him. He is going to spend some time trying to atone, no doubt about it, and he does not want to do that as Cap.
PPS FALCONCAPFALCONCAPFALCONCAPPPPPPPP \o/ . I WANTED IT SO MUCH. And I want Bucky to rest. Let the guy rest! After his road trip with his bestie Sam, tho.
As far back as original Avengers, Nat was talking about wiping out the red in her ledger. It makes sense for it to be her, tho I hated it. HAAATED IT. I mean, I loved it, but I hated it. You know. It was so moving - Clint had already lost everything, but his family was her family, too, and she wanted him to go back to his kids. She did it for him, as much as for anyone else in the world. And that was the part that was horrible and wonderful. But I really wish she'd been there for the final battle, and it doesn't really make sense to me that Nebula wouldn't have told them what they'd have to do, to get the stone; she surely had figured it out. So while I liked Clint and Nat fighting each other (once again, it's a theme) to get to be the sacrifice, I did not feel it was set up well at all. Did I cry? Yes. Yes I did. A lot.
So, both Bruce AND Tony snapped - Bruce to restore the vanished, and Tony to vanish their enemies and defeat Thanos. One wonders...was that all both of them did, with that snap? We may never know. Bruce did say he tried to bring Nat back. Alas.
VALKYRIE IS KING. YAAAS KING! That's cool, I'm going to write the story I didn't get out of Thor being king, and it'll be great. (For me; you all will never see it.) Meanwhile, Thor goes on to be a Guardian of the Galaxy, just ditches that whole king and legacy crap and gets on with his life, I guess? I expect Loki to pop into his chambers one night and be like, SURPRISE, BITCH, I've traveled through space and time to stand in the sun with you! Chubby!Thor might have a heart attack. *g* Yay Korg and Miek, tho!
And now, Tony. The whole theater, including me, just lost its shit when he snapped the gauntlet. The WHOLE THEATER. And then there was so much crying in there, during his death scene. The first time I saw it, I could not function. I was better today when I saw it again. Please do not ever tell me RDJ phones it in, in these movies; he was excellent in this. And Tony had a fitting death. Pepper, tho. PEPPER. Reassuring him. Loving him. She'd already accepted, finally, that this is who he is and this is how it was going to end. She told him he could rest. AUGHHHH. And PETER. And RHODEY. His fucking squad, all there with him, except for normal old courageous Happy. Cap and Thor, standing there crying. Peter's goodbye here was 10 times as sad as it was when Peter himself was dusted. God.
Strange gave up the stone to save Tony. Some part of Tony has always, always known, and that's why he was afraid. And the fact that he did it anyway...that's what makes him a hero.
I...am...Iron Man. . Oh look, I'm crying again. The arrogant never see it coming. You said it, Thanos.
This movie gave us so much with Tony - the scenes with Howard were gold. We see Tony as he must have been with his dad as a kid, clumsy, unsure, and it was heart-wrenching to see Howard turn from the villain of the story in Tony's eyes into a man who never got to know Tony as he was later in life, a dad waiting for the birth of the son he already loved. What a gift that was.
My fave Tony moment in this was when he had to sit down - hard - when he realized he had solved the time travel puzzle. "Shit!" And then his cute daughter, ugh, all the feels. I love you 3000. *wibble*
Did you guys see Harley at the funeral? So tall and cute. Tony would be so proud. All his accidental and on purpose kids. Guaranteed, they are all set for life.
PPPS, Tony appreciating Steve's ass was a moment for the ages. I'm just saying. Steve appreciating his OWN ass had me in barking with laughter. The Hail Hydra was a great moment, and the Avengers...Assemble was a HUGE cheer in the theater...I mean...wow. I had chills.
Oh god, I just realized that now Bucky is Steve and Cap is Peggy. Oh, no.
Now the stuff I definitely did not like.
Tony gets a huge funeral, Nat gets...nothing. I mean, yes. They grieved for her. Steve cried for her. That was meaningful. Clint and Wanda talked about Nat and Vision, and that was meaningful. But to wonder aloud if she has family?! Dude, did you not know her AT ALL?! I was kind of pissed about that, not going to lie.
Similarly, there's a thing that didn't bother me when I first left the movie, but now it's bothering me a lot, and that was the fact that the movie absolutely cheated us out of a conversation that there's no rational reason to omit. Steve and Bucky got no reunion hug - Tony and Peter did, and yes, sure, I loved that - but Steve and Bucky just...didn't interact. There's no question there were things happening between them offscreen, that you can clearly tell from their goodbye before Steve went back in time (see above) - that's not an inference, it was clear in the dialogue - but we didn't get to SEE it, and once again if not for SebStan's stellar acting, we'd have nothing. I mean. Bucky sends Sam over to see Steve, and Sam looks to Bucky for the nod of approval, and then there's not even a Bucky-interacting-with-old-Cap scene? Not even a 'Hey old man, I see you brought the stupid back' and a smile or something. I'd say, well, maybe they were saving that for the series, but come on, CEvans is out. He wanted out. He's done. So. I'm baffled by that, not even from a shipper standpoint, but from a 'didn't Steve's determination to save Bucky power like three movies and the feud that started this movie off, too??' perspective. It's just...baffling that they spent time and care on so many of the important relationships and completely ignored the one that has powered literally all of Cap's solo movies. There's an article on Den of Geek that really talks about this, and I'm in agreement with most of it.
Sidebar on this: did we ever see Bucky's arm in this movie? That's just...so fucking lazy. What a waste.
I also found it really weird that after Gamora kicked Quill in the nuts on behalf of all of us, she disappeared from the movie, and apparently we got no reaction from Quill about the stunning sadness of seeing her so soon after losing his girl. There was a nice opportunity for a Quill who's still mourning his Gamora to interact with this Gamora on the level of 'I don't know you yet but I will' but instead it was all fun and games with Thor on the ship. Weird.
I guess these three things illustrate for me that no matter how many character beats they did manage to hit, there was a lot that was important that was sacrificed for shit that didn't matter (Russo screen time to have a completely unimportant riff about a gay character no one cares about, wtf?!) and for things that did (totally down for Dad!Tony, who almost died and decided he'd had enough of that, it was time for the farm he told Steve he was going to buy in Ultron - but that sucked up a lot of time).
And lastly, the girl power scene really did nothing for me the first time I saw it, because in order, here's all I could think about: 1) where did she get that winged horse and 2) the only female character I care about isn't in this scene. The second time I liked it better, but I still feel sort of eyerolly about it.
I think this movie was, overall, very satisfying and a great send-off, and there is SO MUCH that can be done with the fanfic. I can't wait to read it ALL.
Loved it. There are some things I definitely didn't like; I'll get to those at the end.
I've been saying for years that everything in Endgame was foreshadowed, and I still believe it to be true.
Nat: There's red in my ledger. I wanna wipe it out. (Avengers)
Tony: I just finally know what I have to do. (Iron Man)
Cap (paraphrase): The guy who came out of the ice isn't the same guy that went in 70 years ago. (Age of Ultron)
Clint: Do you know what it's like to be unmade? (Avengers)
All the rest of this is in such random order, I can't even tell you. Here we go.
So some version of Loki has had the tesseract, and therefore the space stone, since the Battle of New York. I'm very happy about this, obviously. Does that mean he can travel through time, or just space? I mean. There are some arguments that it's all the same thing. IDK. MCU time/space is definitely not subject to any kind of Earth logic, so I'd say go crazy, fic writers.
This movie was all about Cap and Tony and I was THERE FOR IT. CAP IS FUCKING WORTHY. HE'S FUCKING WORTHY AND WE ALL KNEW IT. The sheer power. YOUR FAVES COULD NEVER. Unless your faves are Thor and Tony, in which case they totally did and could FOREVER. That entire battle scene was worth the price of admission. But Cap - the way he used MewMew to push his shield! This is a level of power from Cap I don't think anyone knew he was capable of - and it was awesome in the truest sense of the word. Thor's delighted, "I knew it!!" was the best thing I've ever seen. As was that moment when Cap had Stormbreaker, and Thor was like, you take the small one!! I died. :D
Cap clearly told Bucky what he planned to do before he entered the quantum tunnel, because their goodbye was very final. You don't say "I'll miss you, buddy" to someone who's coming back in 5 seconds, in the time you're experiencing. He was so sad. :/ And when he turned away after Cap didn't materialize, he smiled a small private smile - he wanted Steve to be happy. How could he not, after everything Steve sacrificed to make sure Bucky was given a chance to live and be a person again???
I also guarantee you, Bucky doesn't want the shield. He wants to rest. And there's no way Cap just went back and ONLY made time with Peggy. We know that in the MCU, past actions don't impact the present, thanks to the long explanation at the beginning from Bruce re how movies are wrong -- there's no way in fucking hell Cap didn't go and save Bucky, full stop, the end. Who else thinks the reason the front door was open was because Bucky was coming over for dinner? Surely not just me. *g*
In addition, Steve would have had to come back to the timeline this Sam and Bucky are in using the suit - he didn't live his life out in that timeline. Peggy in this timeline still married someone else, still had kids, still ran SHIELD. Peggy in Steve's timeline was with Steve, and Bucky probably was there too; when Steve was ready, he got in that quantum suit and GPSed back to that moment, to give the shield to Sam. Shoot, he might look so old because he waited til their KIDS were dead. He could come back when he wanted; Tony and Steve making a separate time jump without the tunnel proved that.
Steve probably had a shield Howard made for him, back in the PeggyandSteve timeline. It's still hard to parse, tho. If he saved himself, there'd be two of him. If he left himself in the ice but then went and saved Bucky WHICH YOU KNOW HE DID, that seems...kind of horrible. If he went back to 70's Peggy, that makes no sense to me, so that theory is right out. In the timeline where they buried Tony, they had Hank Pym, who could make all the particles they'd ever need. Steve probably had a good supply when he set off to restore the stones. He could have gone wherever. Whenever, technically.
Also and finally on this issue, past actions in the timeline not impacting the present has nothing to do with removing the infinity stones and causing a branch off of time. The infinity stones are the fabric of the universe, basically; remove them and time/possibly reality is altered, replace them and it's fine. Poking around in the past doesn't alter reality, which is fixed in your timeline. It's the old 'time is a fixed constant' vs 'time is an endless loop' vs 'time diverges constantly' argument. This seems to be a variation of time is a fixed constant + time diverges constantly. The timeline can be changed, but you're essentially living in a new timeline when you do so; you haven't changed your OWN ORIGINAL future, you've just changed the future you're now creating as you're living in the new timeline.
The more I think about it, the less sense it makes, but I'd rather be mad about Steve and Bucky, and I don't have the energy to do more than handwave the time travel stuff, too. *g*
PS to the BuckySam people, DID YOU SEE SAM'S COMFORTING HAND ON BUCKY'S SHOULDER AT TONY'S FUNERAL? And Sam looking to Bucky for the nod to take the shield?!?! The thing I'm sad about there is, Bucky never got to make amends, and you know that's something that mattered to him. He is going to spend some time trying to atone, no doubt about it, and he does not want to do that as Cap.
PPS FALCONCAPFALCONCAPFALCONCAPPPPPPPP \o/ . I WANTED IT SO MUCH. And I want Bucky to rest. Let the guy rest! After his road trip with his bestie Sam, tho.
As far back as original Avengers, Nat was talking about wiping out the red in her ledger. It makes sense for it to be her, tho I hated it. HAAATED IT. I mean, I loved it, but I hated it. You know. It was so moving - Clint had already lost everything, but his family was her family, too, and she wanted him to go back to his kids. She did it for him, as much as for anyone else in the world. And that was the part that was horrible and wonderful. But I really wish she'd been there for the final battle, and it doesn't really make sense to me that Nebula wouldn't have told them what they'd have to do, to get the stone; she surely had figured it out. So while I liked Clint and Nat fighting each other (once again, it's a theme) to get to be the sacrifice, I did not feel it was set up well at all. Did I cry? Yes. Yes I did. A lot.
So, both Bruce AND Tony snapped - Bruce to restore the vanished, and Tony to vanish their enemies and defeat Thanos. One wonders...was that all both of them did, with that snap? We may never know. Bruce did say he tried to bring Nat back. Alas.
VALKYRIE IS KING. YAAAS KING! That's cool, I'm going to write the story I didn't get out of Thor being king, and it'll be great. (For me; you all will never see it.) Meanwhile, Thor goes on to be a Guardian of the Galaxy, just ditches that whole king and legacy crap and gets on with his life, I guess? I expect Loki to pop into his chambers one night and be like, SURPRISE, BITCH, I've traveled through space and time to stand in the sun with you! Chubby!Thor might have a heart attack. *g* Yay Korg and Miek, tho!
And now, Tony. The whole theater, including me, just lost its shit when he snapped the gauntlet. The WHOLE THEATER. And then there was so much crying in there, during his death scene. The first time I saw it, I could not function. I was better today when I saw it again. Please do not ever tell me RDJ phones it in, in these movies; he was excellent in this. And Tony had a fitting death. Pepper, tho. PEPPER. Reassuring him. Loving him. She'd already accepted, finally, that this is who he is and this is how it was going to end. She told him he could rest. AUGHHHH. And PETER. And RHODEY. His fucking squad, all there with him, except for normal old courageous Happy. Cap and Thor, standing there crying. Peter's goodbye here was 10 times as sad as it was when Peter himself was dusted. God.
Strange gave up the stone to save Tony. Some part of Tony has always, always known, and that's why he was afraid. And the fact that he did it anyway...that's what makes him a hero.
I...am...Iron Man. . Oh look, I'm crying again. The arrogant never see it coming. You said it, Thanos.
This movie gave us so much with Tony - the scenes with Howard were gold. We see Tony as he must have been with his dad as a kid, clumsy, unsure, and it was heart-wrenching to see Howard turn from the villain of the story in Tony's eyes into a man who never got to know Tony as he was later in life, a dad waiting for the birth of the son he already loved. What a gift that was.
My fave Tony moment in this was when he had to sit down - hard - when he realized he had solved the time travel puzzle. "Shit!" And then his cute daughter, ugh, all the feels. I love you 3000. *wibble*
Did you guys see Harley at the funeral? So tall and cute. Tony would be so proud. All his accidental and on purpose kids. Guaranteed, they are all set for life.
PPPS, Tony appreciating Steve's ass was a moment for the ages. I'm just saying. Steve appreciating his OWN ass had me in barking with laughter. The Hail Hydra was a great moment, and the Avengers...Assemble was a HUGE cheer in the theater...I mean...wow. I had chills.
Oh god, I just realized that now Bucky is Steve and Cap is Peggy. Oh, no.
Now the stuff I definitely did not like.
Tony gets a huge funeral, Nat gets...nothing. I mean, yes. They grieved for her. Steve cried for her. That was meaningful. Clint and Wanda talked about Nat and Vision, and that was meaningful. But to wonder aloud if she has family?! Dude, did you not know her AT ALL?! I was kind of pissed about that, not going to lie.
Similarly, there's a thing that didn't bother me when I first left the movie, but now it's bothering me a lot, and that was the fact that the movie absolutely cheated us out of a conversation that there's no rational reason to omit. Steve and Bucky got no reunion hug - Tony and Peter did, and yes, sure, I loved that - but Steve and Bucky just...didn't interact. There's no question there were things happening between them offscreen, that you can clearly tell from their goodbye before Steve went back in time (see above) - that's not an inference, it was clear in the dialogue - but we didn't get to SEE it, and once again if not for SebStan's stellar acting, we'd have nothing. I mean. Bucky sends Sam over to see Steve, and Sam looks to Bucky for the nod of approval, and then there's not even a Bucky-interacting-with-old-Cap scene? Not even a 'Hey old man, I see you brought the stupid back' and a smile or something. I'd say, well, maybe they were saving that for the series, but come on, CEvans is out. He wanted out. He's done. So. I'm baffled by that, not even from a shipper standpoint, but from a 'didn't Steve's determination to save Bucky power like three movies and the feud that started this movie off, too??' perspective. It's just...baffling that they spent time and care on so many of the important relationships and completely ignored the one that has powered literally all of Cap's solo movies. There's an article on Den of Geek that really talks about this, and I'm in agreement with most of it.
Sidebar on this: did we ever see Bucky's arm in this movie? That's just...so fucking lazy. What a waste.
I also found it really weird that after Gamora kicked Quill in the nuts on behalf of all of us, she disappeared from the movie, and apparently we got no reaction from Quill about the stunning sadness of seeing her so soon after losing his girl. There was a nice opportunity for a Quill who's still mourning his Gamora to interact with this Gamora on the level of 'I don't know you yet but I will' but instead it was all fun and games with Thor on the ship. Weird.
I guess these three things illustrate for me that no matter how many character beats they did manage to hit, there was a lot that was important that was sacrificed for shit that didn't matter (Russo screen time to have a completely unimportant riff about a gay character no one cares about, wtf?!) and for things that did (totally down for Dad!Tony, who almost died and decided he'd had enough of that, it was time for the farm he told Steve he was going to buy in Ultron - but that sucked up a lot of time).
And lastly, the girl power scene really did nothing for me the first time I saw it, because in order, here's all I could think about: 1) where did she get that winged horse and 2) the only female character I care about isn't in this scene. The second time I liked it better, but I still feel sort of eyerolly about it.
I think this movie was, overall, very satisfying and a great send-off, and there is SO MUCH that can be done with the fanfic. I can't wait to read it ALL.