Purgatory - Why I Disagree...

Jul 12, 2015 22:44

A friend of mine (who is of the Roman Catholic persuasion) recently posted an item regarding the RC doctrine of Purgatory.  I read it, then posted a short note to needle her about it, not realizing that I was replying to the entire thread and not just her posting of it!  Below is the comment I made, the interesting and thoughtful reply from someone else, and my rebuttal and refutation of their position.

This is on a public thread, so I half expect to get flooded with further evidence of Purgatory's existence (and quoting catechism at me doesn't work at this point) or words of condemnation, telling me that I'm going all the way to hell for not believing in Purgatory!

But debate is how we sharpen ourselves, right?  "Iron sharpens iron" and all that...

*****




  • Steve Boose Sorry, no. Can't convince me. "Today you will be with me in Paradise." I can entertain the argument that judgement may be delayed until the trump actually sounds, but not that there is a place of purgation waiting for my "unforgiven" sins.



  • (Person whose name is irrelevant) Since the Gates of Heaven were closed from the time of Adam and Eve, and no one entered, John 3:13, where did all of the Biblical Prophets and heros go until the Gates were reopened at the Crucifixion? Surely they could not have been in hell, as that is permanent and no one leaves there. Moses and Elias appeared to Jesus before the Crucifixion, Matthew 17:3. From where did they come? Limbo? Sheol? Purgatory? There had to have been a third place, right? If there was a third place then, why not a third place now? Non Catholic theologians struggle trying to reconcile their denial of the existence of Purgatory with what Paul said in 1Corinthians 3:12-15:

    "Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw- each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire*."

    To whom do these verses refer? Obviously the person is not in hell, as verse 15 says "himself will be saved". He cannot be in heaven either as the same verse implies suffering, "as through fire", and there is no suffering in heaven. These verses say that man will be purified by fire and then will be saved to enter Heaven. Where will this, "yet as though through fire", take place if not in a third place called Purgatory?

    *The Greek word used for fire is "pursw" (puroo) of which "pur" is the root word for Purgatory.

    "And who shall be able to think of the day of His coming? And who shall stand to see Him? For HE IS LIKE A REFINING FIRE, and like the fuller's herb; AND HE SHALL SIT REFINING AND CLEANSING THE SILVER. AND HE SHALL PURIFY THE SONS OF LEVI, AND SHALL REFINE THEM AS GOLD, AND AS SILVER, and they shall offer sacrifices to the Lord in justice."

    Malachi 3:2-3

    "...Strike the Shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered; and I will turn My hand to the little ones. And they shall be in all the earth, said the Lord, TWO PARTS IN IT SHALL BE SCATTERED, AND SHALL PERISH, BUT THE THIRD PART SHALL BE LEFT THEREIN. AND I WILL BRING THE THIRD PART THROUGH THE FIRE, AND WILL REFINE THEM AS SILVER IS REFINED, AND I WILL TRY THEM AS GOLD IS TRIED. THEY SHALL CALL ON MY NAME, AND I WILL HEAR THEM. I WILL SAY: YOU ARE MY PEOPLE. AND THEY SHALL SAY; THE LORD IS MY GOD."

    Zechariah 13:7-9

    "As silver is tried by fire, and gold in the furnace, so the Lord tries the hearts."

    Proverbs 17:3.

    The metal refiner watches the silver, for if the process is longer than necessary, the silver will be harmed.

    "He shall sit refining and cleansing the silver. And he shall purify the sons of Levi, and shall refine them as gold, and as silver..."

    Malachi 3:3.

    HE KNOWS THE PROCESS IS COMPLETE WHEN HE CAN SEE HIS OWN IMAGE REFLECTED IN THE SILVER.

    GOD SAID, "LET US MAKE MANKIND IN OUR IMAGE AND LIKENESS."

    Genesis 1:26

    "...Woe is me, because I have held my peace; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people that has unclean lips, and I have seen with my eyes the King of the Lord of Hosts. And one of the Seraphims flew to me, and in his hand was a live coal, which he had taken with the tongs off the altar. And he touched my mouth and said, 'BEHOLD THIS HAS TOUCHED YOUR LIPS, AND YOUR INIQUITIES SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY, AND YOUR SIN SHALL BE CLEANSED'." Isaiah 6:5-7

    What can this possibly mean other than a purgation of sins through fire?

    In 1Peter 3:19, Christ preached to the spirits in prison. What spirits? What prison? We will become pure spirits only after we die, so the spirits have to be the spirits of the dead. Prison cannot mean Heaven, and souls in hell are lost forever. Prison must mean a third place.

    1Peter 4:6, the Gospel was preached "even to the dead". Again, where were these dead?

    Matthew 12:32, "...but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him either in this world or in the world to come." This passage alludes to another world in which some sins will be forgiven. What other world? Again it could not be either Heaven or hell.

    Hebrews 12:23, "...and to the Church of the Firstborn who are enrolled in the heavens, and to GOD, THE JUDGE OF ALL AND TO THE SPIRITS OF THE JUST MADE PERFECT."

    We have already seen from Revelation 21:27 that nothing imperfect will enter heaven, and in Hebrews 12:23, the spirits of the just are made perfect. Revelation 22:14 shows that there will be a cleansing before admission to the tree of life and entrance through the gates of the city. Where will all of this happen if not in a third place?

    "For everyone shall be salted with fire, and every victim shall be salted."

    Mark 9:48.

    What fire, but the purification fire of Purgatory?

    "But that servant who knew his masters will, and did not make ready for him and did not act according to his will, will be beaten with many stripes."

    Luke 12:47.

    Are people beaten in Heaven? Those in hell are lost, so where will this punishment be fulfilled?

    Very strong evidence that a third place exists, is in 2Maccabees 12:38-46:

    "...it is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to Pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins."

    If there are only Heaven and hell, why then does Scripture ask us to pray for the dead? If the dead are in hell, prayer is useless. If the dead are in Heaven, prayer is not needed. Therefore there has to be a third place where prayers are needed.

    St. Paul prayed for his dead friend Onesiphorus in 2Timothy 1:18,

    "May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day."

    Why would Paul pray for the dead if he thought his friend to be in heaven or hell where prayers would help neither?

    The greatest torment in Purgatory is to be separated from GOD for a period of time. Remember, in this life we have five senses, and they are always a distraction for us when we try to concentrate on things of GOD such as prayer. After we leave this life, we are spirit and have lost our five senses. There are no more distractions.

    Purgatory should be regarded as a great blessing from GOD. Even though souls there are in torment, it is only a temporary torment. All who go there are assured of eventually gaining the Kingdom of Heaven.

    It sure beats the third alternative...



  • Steve Boose Obviously we are coming at this from two different perspectives. Though I do appreciate your well-written and exhaustive reply to my statements, I am not moved by the arguments contained therein.

    The place from whence Elijah and Moses appeared to Jesus need not be a "third place" - Elijah was swept into heaven in a chariot of fire, and Moses' death, while presented in Deuteronomy, was after living a life trying to follow the dictates of the Lord and placing himself always in God's hands, with the noted exception of his anger at the rock for which he received the punishment of not being allowed to enter the Promised Land, a punishment carried out as we have it given to us in Scripture. My position, that they were sent from heaven itself to provide a glimpse of heavenly glory to the simple minds of Peter, James and John, is as valid as yours; moreso, in my own mind, because of God Himself chose to do this, who am I to say other?

    I find your reference to 1 Corinthians 3 to be somewhat off-base. Putting the passage in context, Paul is speaking of the establishment of congregations on the proper foundation of Jesus Christ (v.11) - the congregation built on this foundation may be strong or weak, precious or poor, but it will either stand the test of fire or fail based on the strength of the people's' faith in the grace of Christ. Many a congregation has failed after the passing of its founding generation, not because of *their* lack of faith but because they built something that was stuck in a moment; ones that succeed are able to move *past* that moment because they rely on the Spirit instead of themselves.

    In any case, is not testing something that we endure in *this* life? Are we not "purified" through our life's experiences, crafted and moulded by the Father Himself as we endure the unendurable as we hold tight to His powerful hand? You quote Malachi 3:3 - I see the prophet saying that God is refining me *here*, not in some nebulous afterworld where I pay off sins I neither confessed nor repented from, potentially because I was blinded to them by the world around me. Isaiah *also* saw himself as unable to speak for the Lord because he was "a man of unclean lips, among a people of unclean lips." The angel did not burn away his sins in the afterlife; they were burned away in a vision encountered in *this* life.

    Next, I dispute your interpretation of 1 Peter 4:6 - like Paul, Peter no doubt began his ministry with an understanding that Jesus would return on an imminent day (what we jokingly referred to as "imminent immanence" in seminary). Those who were alive when this return occurred were thought to be the only ones who would be caught up into heaven. But then, some began to die - naturally, or through persecution, and the question came to some who remained: was the Good News *wasted* on these who have died? No!, declare both Peter and Paul, (1 Peter 4:5-6, Romans 14:9) and Jesus Himself (Luke 20:38 and associated parallels in Matthew and Mark) - God is God of both the living *and* the dead! In 1 Corinthians 15, we have Paul's wonderful assurance of the change that will come at the sounding of the last trumpet, when "the dead shall rise" and we shall all come before the Lord!

    So, where are the "dead" until that time? Good question. As a Presbyterian, Maccabees is little more than a curiosity to me, not Scripture; in any case, it points to the ancient Jewish belief of Sheol/Hades, a place where the spirits of the dead "go" that defies explanation - when Samuel's spirit was called up by the witch of Endor, he complains of having been "disturbed". There is no thanks for even momentary relief of suffering, nor indignance at having been called down from heaven. Samuel's spirit was "disturbed," and that was it. Paul's words in 1 Timothy are a common desire that God be merciful - though we may see ourselves as faithful, and may see *others* as faithful, it is God who judges, God whose grace must have been received, and God whose blessing we all seek.

    But again, I quote the thief who asked Jesus, on the cross, after a life of crime, to remember him, and Jesus said, "Today you will be with me in Paradise." A moment of faith after a life of evil, and it's enough! But is it instant, or are we waiting, our spirits resting or wandering, *until* that day? Scriptural evidence exists for both!

    I also fall back to Hebrews 10:10-14, where the author of that book speaks of the priest repeating sacrifices day after day, year after year, while Christ, with one act, paid the price for *all* of them. If I take Christ into my heart, my sins become like the dust of the road, needing a wipe from time to time but not sticking to me and not requiring any kind of rededication or continual penance other than the request for forgiveness. (John 13:9-10). I need no "purging" after my earthly life is over; I'm in, or I'm out. If I'm "in", my sins are left behind with my earthly body - earth to earth, ashes to ashes, dust to dust. If I'm "out", then no "purgation" exists to bring me back in.

    Now, to conclude (and I'm going to use capital letters here, so please forgive me if you think me rude): NOTHING YOU CAN SAY CAN CONVINCE ME THAT PURGATORY EXISTS. If I am *wrong*, I will find out after I am dead! If I am *right*, it *still* won't be confirmed for me until after I am dead! You have Scriptural backup and interpretation, and so do I. You have a thousand or more years of Canon Law and catechism on your side; I have five hundred years of protest against such doctrines.

    There is also this: the father of the Prodigal did not demand years of labour from his son before he finally acknowledged him as such, years of being shut out of the house until he had "fully paid his penalty." No, he ran to him, called out for ring, robe and sandals, and ordered the fatted calf to be killed. No waiting period. No "purgatory" to make him worthy of entrance into the family again. The child/sinner returned to his father/Father and the father/Father welcomed him in.

    Where is the waiting period? If there was one, you'd think Jesus would have talked about it.

    For your consideration...

christianity, theology, long, reflection, church, religion

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