still more thoughts
Yeah, I know, you all are getting sick of this. Well, it's either post my thoughts here, or start posting retorts to all the comments I'm reading about what's wrong with this book. Everyone seems to want to talk about what was wrong with it instead of what was right with it. And yeah, I know, I could just stop reading. No, this isn't directed at
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I just can't choke down the possibility that the love potion theory is true. The hippogriff theory at least had a mythological reference to support it, (I think). I think that's one of the reasons Jo had Ron being affected by a love potion in this book...it had obvious, unmistakable effects that were completely different from the way Hermione and Harry were behaving throughout this story. Harry wasn't obsessed with Ginny. Hermione wasn't obsessed with Ron. Ron was obsessed with Romilda.
I can't choke down the possibility that Jo will kill off Ginny and Ron to put Harry and Hermione together, either. And I don't see Harry and Hermione getting together unless Ginny and Ron are dead. I think it's obvious in this book that Harry knows how Ron and Hermione feel about each other. Harry wouldn't betray Ron in that manner, nor would he betray Ginny. And Hermione is friends with Ginny, too. I don't think she would want to betray Ginny that way, either.
I have to ask, do you really believe that Jo will put Harry and Hermione together in book 7?
Why would Jo do that? I would have far more easily bought H/Hr in the sixth and seventh book than OBHWF in the sixth and H/HR 4-eva in the seventh. In the first place, if the series was going to end H/Hr, why would she piss off the H/Hr fans by embracing OBHWF in book 6, and risk the possibility that they would drop the series never to return? In the second place, don't you think that turning on a dime like that would make her look foolish as a author? Don't you think she would think it would make her look foolish as an author? It would look like she couldn't make up her mind which relationships she wanted to write, so she just decided to write them all and hope that everybody was a little bit happy in between being pissed off. In the third place, wouldn't that make Harry and Hermione look rather cold and callous, now that the H/G and R/Hr relationships have been established?
I'm not going to say it won't happen, but by God, if it does, it better be for a better reason than "oops, Harry and Hermione were influence by love potions in book 6, sorry...hee hee!" I've yet to run across a love potion theory that is believable, but if you have one to share, go ahead.
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I don't know anything about this 'hippogriff' theory, I've gathered from your blog entries that it was something stupendously stupid conjured up by the H/Hr zealots? And yes, I agree that a 'love potion' theory is improbable ... as I said, a *small* part of me is still clinging on, though. You can ridicule that little portion of 'madderbrad' as you would the stereotypical H/Hr shipper if you like ... I think it can take it.
I like your insight on the different levels of 'obsession'; good one.
I, also, can't see how JKR could resolve a 'love potion cancels everything' plot in book 7 without making the whole series look like a romantic sitcom farce. And the series is supposed to be much much more than that.
But if she *could* do it ... without cheapening the other characters, without making enemies out of friends, without making 98% of her readership burn her books in disgust ... I can't see how, but if she *could* ... sigh.
And no, I do not really believe that Harry and Hermione will be a romantic couple in Book 7 ... all along I've been whinging about book SIX, Delylah, book SIX. I didn't like book SIX. Book SIX should have had the real Hermione. I would have liked H/Hr for book SIX. But book six has set the stage for book 7 - H/G is in, OBHWF is on the cards. For book 7 - which comes after what we've now read in book six - I forsee the obvious course, with Ginny helping Harry out (perhaps secretly? Or will she just front up and refuse to leave her man?). Maybe the Trio/Sextet will split up to chase down separate Horcruxen. I *loved* your - Mr. Intel's, both of yours - ideas that Ginny could be a Horcrux herself. That quote from CoS is a classic. And holds heaps of potential for drama in the book. Like I said somewhere the past two days, I hope to see a lot more H/G in book 7, since, if that's the way it's going, the more the better to believe and luxuriate in.
Maybe there is some whizz bang plan to collapse H/G in the grand finale. I think Lori Summers is saying in her blog that, viewing the series as a literary epic, one more death is required, and on the progressive scale of godfather -> mentor -> X dying, to increase the pressure on Harry, X can only be Ginny. Neither of us might like that, but it's possible. And if Ginny dies, who knows if Hermione will end up with Harry. But I'd say H/Hr would be incidental in such an event, ancillary to the drama of Ginny's death, and I wouldn't like to think that Harry would move on from Ginny until quite some time afterwards. Like some H/Hr shippers are now saying, "we always thought H/Hr would happen in later years anyway" (!).
(Again, please note - given how HBP finished, I want to see H/G being happy and don't want her killed just so I can see H/Hr together)
I think you've put me in a 'stereotypical shipper' slot and thought I was scrabbling for any way possible to get H/Hr going in book 7, bugger everyone else. I wish there was a way to do so without making the whole series look ridiculous and hurt/change the other people close to Harry, but I don't think there's going to be one. And I've always liked H/G anyway, just these days ... well, up until the 'new and not improved' Hermione of HBP ... I had just a bit more of a preference for H/Hr.
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There is an essay over at Portkey about the hippogriff thing, I think. Apparently the hippogriff in mythology was a symbol of love (as the mating of griffins and horses was said to be impossible as they were mortal enemies their offspring is said to represent love). Harry and Hermione's hippogriff flight in POA is supposed to be symbolic of their impending romantic relationship. I'm not sure how the fact that Hermione hated flying on the thing, or the fact that Sirius rode with them on it during part of the flight is supposed to figure in. My husband jokingly said that it symbolized that H/Hr/S would eventually have a threesome. :)
There's also another theory about Pigwidgeon fluttering around Hermione's head supposedly symbolizing that she's the one for Harry, but I don't remember the whole thing so I don't remember why it's supposed to be symbolic.
I'm not trying to knock you for your chosen ship, Brad. If you took me to be doing so, I apologize. However, you've made at least two comments somewhere in these entries now that have made me feel as if you think I'm foolish for enjoying the book and being happy that H/G has come to fruition, which rubbed me the wrong way. If you didn't mean them that way, that's fine. I'm fully aware that I'm a little oversensitive sometimes.
I don't blame you for not liking book 6 if H/Hr is your preferred ship. Some of the H/G fans I know aren't happy with it, either. I just can't help but thinking that all the theorizing going on of how JKR will put H/Hr together in the final book is kind of silly, especially given that I can think of several interviews where JKR dropped hints that this was coming. She's said that Harry and Hermione were platonic friends (I don't care how old that quote is, it still applies). When someone asked her if Harry and Hermione would have a date, she asked, "do you really think they'd suit?" and seemed surprised by the question. She said Ron and Hermione were where the tension was. Seems like the last time the subject was addressed, she asked "I can't believe some of you haven't worked this out by now." Well, book 6 is here...I don't think she can make it any more obvious. She said a couple of months ago that a lot of people wouldn't like this book, but that she was writing first and foremost to please herself, not to please her fans.
It's not her fault that the H/Hr camp built Harry and Hermione's close friendship into a romantic one when there's never been any indication of romance between them. Had she written H/Hr it wouldn't have been her fault that the H/G folks saw something in H/G that wasn't there, either. I think that people who are busily theorizing H/Hr for the next book are setting themselves up for another fall. Yes, I may be wrong, Jo may go and put H/Hr together...but I think it highly unlikely. I'm fairly certain, though, if things had gone the other way, and Jo had put H/Hr together and then broken them up at the end, if the H/G and R/Hr crowd had begun theorizing about how we'd be getting OBHWF in book 7, the H/Hr folks would have been laughing their asses off and calling us deluded and saying that they were right all along.
As for the real Hermione...she was right there, in book 6. I recognized that girl, but then, I've never been one to put Hermione on a pedestal and I've never seen her as the heroine of the story. I don't think Hermione acted out of character, not given the circumstances, and not given the precedents for her behavior.
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Totally independent of all this shipping stuff, yes, I didn't enjoy the book for a multitude of reasons and don't understand how other people did. But that's life. Some fan fiction authors out there hated it, some loved it. It's fun talking over the different viewpoints and by golly it's amazing to see what other readers picked up that I didn't. Frank discussion of views is fine as long as neither party descends into ad hominem attacks, starts insulting the intelligence of the other, "you're an idiot", etcetera. I'm pretty sure I haven't done that, because I don't think it (you'd be embarrassed if you knew the sort of pedestal on which I place you quality fan fiction authors). I don't think you're foolish for being happy about H/G ... like I've said, I've enjoyed that ship too, you know ... I do think it's weird that you've enjoyed other (non shipping) parts of the book that I found distinctly bad.
I'm relatively new to cyber fandom and I guess it's natural for topics to drift over time and assumptions as to the others' positions to be made. Like I said above where I felt people were starting to put me in a 'preferred H/Hr, therefore is anti H/G and that's why he hates HBP' box. One of the reasons I didn't like HBP was that the H/G was skeletal, for me without body ... but I've worked out that I've been spoilt by the fan fiction, JKR isn't writing a dedicated romantic series, etcetera.
And I'm fairly thick-skinned, I often don't pick up on subtle/polite hints as to where I may be crossing the line, please tell me if I do. Absolutely no malice intended, enjoying talking to you in the phoenixsong chat half an hour prior to going out and buying the book - that will be part of my overall "HBP memory" in 30 years time - appreciate your letting me come here to your blog. I haven't been too disruptive, have I?
When it comes to H/Hr, let me state again where I was pre-HBP ... my favourite part of the series was the H/Hr relationship. I didn't see signs of romantic love between them, but otherwise it was a thing beautiful to behold, I thought. I also didn't see signs of Harry loving anyone else - Mr. Intel can talk about literary symbology all he likes, but when it comes to HARRY thinking "Gee that Ginny is one cute girl" all there is pre-HBP were his looking at her hair or comparing her to a cat. 3 days ago I thought Harry could go either way, such was the lack of any *firm* evidence. I would have enjoyed H/G, but the concept of that wonderful H/Hr bond maturing into one of love also was too enticing to put away, so that was why H/Hr was my preference.
I was never privy to any of the out-of-band JKR interview stuff, so all those JKR quotes passed me by.
As I said before, I'm not clever enough to see any way that JKR can possibly do H/Hr now. So we're agreed there. And now that it's H/G I want to see more of that in book 7, I didn't see enough of it in HBP to make me feel that it was 'real'. I *really* want to see more of the Trio in action, one for all and all for one, let's get those horcruxen, and I really really want to see OotP!Hermione come back and start helping Harry out heaps as part of all that.
I think that is one of our last/only/final points of contention - was OotP!Hermione drastically emasculated, cut down, destroyed, diminished, in comparison with HBP!Hermione. Not thinking about the shipping thing at all. I say yay, you say nay. I'm also saying that my head is about to explode from all the various viewpoints, facts and theories that I've seen postulated around fandom the past 3 days. Can't wait to see the essays pop up with solid referents to the texts to prove or disprove things like Hermione's characterisation. Mr. Intel is asking for that sort of stuff right now (well, yesterday, last time I checked).
Exciting, this thing called fandom, isn't it?
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When I first finished the book, I also thought the H/G was not explored as much as I would have wanted it that way, but the more I read over the passages, the more I'm happy with it and the more I'm glad that she left a good bit of it up to our imaginations.
We'll probably just have to agree to disagree about Hermione. I've never been a huge fan of Hermione's character. I like her just fine, but I don't think Harry's relationship with her is any different (and certainly not more important) from his relationship with Ron. And if it is different...then that seems to be confirming the belief that "men and women can't just be friends because the sex thing gets in the way" which just irks me.
I don't think she's "Harry's Angel" (as I've seen her described in the past couple of days). Sometimes it seems to me that a lot of people in the fandom put her on a pedestal and almost revere her...and now that she's shown that she's human and can react in certain situations the same way any 17 year old girl might react...they feel let down. I think people forget how young Hermione and Harry and Ron still are and try to force them into twenty-something shoes even though they're just teenagers.
Blargh. This is why I don't get involved in shipping debates (and I don't mean we're debating, I just mean in general). It's just like beating my head against a brick wall...afterwards, my head hurts, and I haven't even made a dent in the wall.
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