This is tangential to the main body of EPIC FAIL, however...

[deirdre_c]

I'm certain someone's already mentioned this, but one minor response to EBear's latest fatuous post:

Jonathan Swift once made a remarkable "modest proposal" which recommended that the Irish eat their own children (or sell the tastier ones as food). As a result, the phrase has been forevermore associated with high satire and indeed any proposal

Comments

[frahulettaes]

the really frustrating part is that no matter how well thought out, how sensible, or how right our critique is of her post, she won't get it. Nor, it seems, will her defenders.

[deirdre_c]

Right now, I'd settle for an acknowledgement that there's the possibility that someone else might have a valid alternative viewpoint, whether that point is right or not. UGH.

[frahulettaes]

Agreed. They've circled the wagons and nothing seems to get in.

[deirdre_c]

I actually don't have (much of) a problem with people getting things wrong; I make more than my share of mistakes and fall prey to plenty of feet-in-mouthiness. But how you react when your mistakes are pointed out to you-- with good grace or with knee-jerk denial and attack-- that's what gains my respective esteem or distain.

(And don't claim to tell me you're going to teach me about writing or that you are sensible to the content of your words, and then mindlessly evoke Swift in a discussion about RACE. Gah.)

[girlguidejones]

I found it intriguing that a white woman would choose to believe she is the best instructor to other authors on how to write meaningful PoC's.

*L*

[deirdre_c]

Well, I imagine there really are some talented white writers who have some great insights about techniques for authors attempting to write different cultural/racial experiences. Of course, this requires (imo) an acknowledgement of your own degrees of ignorance and of the context within which you write. And it certainly requires a rethinking of your abilities when people of color TELL YOU YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG. Mmmph.

[fairyd123]

I've rather read around this rather epic debate and just found it exhausting. And the level of wankiness and bollocks being spouted by both sides was astonishing. It was like someone writing a parody of "angry people of colour" versus "priviliged smug white people". The extremes of opinion being spouted was astonishing.

I admit that in the UK because we're such a melting pot and indeed we have the joys of country divides so that even amongst the "white" population you have the divides of English v Wales v Scotland v Ireland (not to mention North versus South etc) race is something of a non issue for me.

But yes bottom line its hard for a white girl to write about a culture she knows nothing about. Write what you know is after all one of the first things that you get taught when it comes to writing.

[deirdre_c]

I think people can/should certainly write about cultures they don't know. I mean, in SFF it's practically a requirement. However, when you're TOLD that you're doing it wrong by the very people you're trying to portray, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to turn it around on them and say, "You don't know what you're talking about."

I also don't think it's appropriate for the people who started the whole fiasco to tell anyone else that it's time to stop the discussion. Certainly she's welcome to withdraw from debate, but she shouldn't demand that everyone else shut up (for the length of time SHE determines) just because she's been made uncomfortable.

[fairyd123]

You should never be afraid to try anything but yes to try and tell the people that you are trying to portray that they're in the wrong? Idiot.

Oh I've had people pull the "This conversation is over" card on me - its the last resort of someone who knows they are in the wrong and just wants it all to go away.

[innie_darling]

I flinched when I read the phrase "modest proposal" in her screed. DUH, professional writer!

[deirdre_c]

Hullo! It's not even that obscure a reference. PoliSci 101!

(Flames. On the side of my face.)

[one_2_3_4]

Uhm...I'm sorry, tl;dr I'm in this way late and don't understand. Cliffnotes version?

[deirdre_c]

oh honey, it is a morass of grossness. You could find most of the detail in links via metafandom, but the gist (from what I understand) is that a group of published white SFF authors have been taken to task for poorly handling a critique of their cultural appropriation. Their response to getting taken to task (and to the very critique itself) has been extreme denial, bad-mouthing the critics, abuse of power, various attempts at CYA by deleting posts and comments and such, and most egregious, OUTING the rl personal information of one of the critics. Yuck.

[one_2_3_4]

...is it just me or does the internet remove all pretense of professionalism and courtesy? Like, it's impossible to remain objective without becoming devoid of the p's and q's people were (hopefully) raised with. Just sayin'.