I'm not sure if this is quite the place to put this comment, but I've noticed a lot of posts about women. More specifically about the place of women within patriarchy.
I wanted more debunking of male. I wanted more discussion of feminist views of men's place patriarchy and how to work that.
Some of the posts, like "Hey Guys! Did you know women are underrepresented in Science!"--that feels...very unsatisfying. It feels really elementary and it feels like pointing out the ways that women are oppressed puts the spotlight yet again on women and allows men to avoid looking at their point complicity or suffering under patriarchy.
Many times in great feminist communities focused on women some guy will pop up and say "what about men?" and the women rightly say, "men's issues within patriarchy are important, but that is not the focus of this community...you should go and do some of your own consciousness raising in your own community." I thought that this community would be the sort of place where that work would be done.
But that work hasn't been done here. And I'm not talking about creepy Iron John Men's Movement bogus stuff, I'm talking real feminist engagement with masculinity and maleness. Debunking and recreating maleness.
I'd like more of that. But maybe this community means to be Feminist 101 for men (i.e. "Hey doofus! Women have it bad, here is how!"--which doesn't actually debunk male because it doesn't put the spotlight on male). But I'd love it if we got to a higher level and really did debunk some male.
Hear, hear. Most forums would rightly discourage that but it could be a good thing to take on in this comm. We'd want good guidelines to keep that stuff properly focused, though. How does this sound to folks?This forum takes it as a given that society systemically oppresses women and privileges men. Posts and comments claiming otherwise are forbidden. Posts and comments which derail discussions of women's oppression with questions of men's challenges, or which dismiss women's experiences as irrelevant, are forbidden. But discussion looking critically at men and masculinity in the context of the systemic oppression of women, including the ways in which men are hurt by patriarchy, is encouraged.
There is quite a bit men can learn about their role as the creators and maintainers of the patriarchy by learning about the ways in which it impacts women. You cannot exactly erase the impact on women and still be talking about sexism.
That is certainly true, but just as women aren't all that excited to have the main focus of a feminist LJ community pulled to focus on men, I would prefer a community that is supposedly about debunking male to have its focus on debunking male. There are lots and lots of communities that focus primarily on the ways the women are impacted negatively by patriarchy. Indeed, the majority of feminist communities focus on that.
If this community wants debunking male to be about male identified people discussing women's experiences primarily, that is a choice the community can make. Perhaps this community is meant to be a Feminist 101 community, where men who had no idea that there is sexism or that women suffer or that there is a patriarchy come here are are educated that sexism exists and hurts women...indeed that men no matter how great they think they are, are implicated in women's oppression. But after that? Then what?
Back in the 70s when women did consciousness raising in order to help combat internalized sexism, they didn't spend most of their time talking about men. I was hoping this would be a much needed space for men to actually do the consciousness raising to unlearn the toxic masculinity that upholds patriarchy. You know, so that women don't actually have to do that work...the work that men have to take responsibility and do.
But that may not be this community.
There are many men who have learned that sexism has impacted women but who still haven't internalized the ways in which they personally are part of that system. They haven't actually done any good feminist analysis of their own position in society.
I think very often when men focus on women's oppression, especially those "feminist allies," it is actually just a way to avoid looking at themselves and doing work to change themselves to combat sexism.
Focusing on women's oppression exclusively, as this community has been doing recently, basically gives men a pass to feel like they are doing some while actually not doing anything to lessing sexism--which comes from men.
I think very often when men focus on women's oppression, especially those "feminist allies," it is actually just a way to avoid looking at themselves and doing work to change themselves to combat sexism.
Ah. Thanks for putting that to words.
Focusing on women's oppression exclusively, as this community has been doing recently, basically gives men a pass to feel like they are doing some while actually not doing anything to lessing sexism--which comes from men.
I'd say “... comes from systemic patriarchy, which privileges men.” The consequent responsibility for men to correct the injustice is the same either way.
You cannot compare women dealing with "what about the mens" to a discussion focused on deconstructing masculinity that includes mentions of ways that maleness fucks women over. You cannot discuss what maleness means without including, at least part of the time, discussions about the impact of that maleness on people who are not men - most of the constructions that get labeled as 'masculine' are meaningless without an understanding of who is victimized. Because there's pretty much always someone who is being hurt by them, and that's often women.
You cannot discuss what maleness means without including, at least part of the time, discussions about the impact of that maleness on people who are not men
I agree with this. I am certain that trooper6 agrees with this.
How can we say more clearly that we want a discussion which thoughtfully includes the impact of patriarchy on men without being dominated by that?
Why didn't you try starting those conversations yourself? Prior to stoneself's recent posting streak, this had pretty much been a dead community. You could argue that some of his posts were on the 101 level, but at least he was doing work which the rest of the guys here (some of whom are clearly still watching this community) weren't doing.
So why haven't I started some of those conversations? Because considering the posts that have been populating the board, I was not sure that such discussions would be on-topic for this community or welcome.
Communities have norms. People who come in and try to change those norms without community assent or discussion I find are generally folks with an overabundance of privilege and/or jerks and/or inconsiderate. So I'm not about to start populating this community with discussions that are out of the norms for this community out of no where. That would be rude.
This is the first time since I've been watching this community that the mods have opened up discussion of what people here want the community norms to be. So it seemed this would be the most appropriate time to bring it up so the community can have a discussion about it.
This community may actually prefer it to be a place where people make posts that say, "Sexism hurts women! Here's a link! Thoughts?" If that's what the community wants, then I'm not about to violate those community norms. But I wanted to have a conversation about it.
So you stood idly by, rather than run the risk of... what? Having a few people tell you that a given post wasn't what the community was about, maybe running the risk of someone being a bit abrupt about it? Being afraid to even try comes across as you not wanting to get into anything where you've opened yourself up to criticism. Not very impressive.
I wanted more debunking of male. I wanted more discussion of feminist views of men's place patriarchy and how to work that.
Some of the posts, like "Hey Guys! Did you know women are underrepresented in Science!"--that feels...very unsatisfying. It feels really elementary and it feels like pointing out the ways that women are oppressed puts the spotlight yet again on women and allows men to avoid looking at their point complicity or suffering under patriarchy.
Many times in great feminist communities focused on women some guy will pop up and say "what about men?" and the women rightly say, "men's issues within patriarchy are important, but that is not the focus of this community...you should go and do some of your own consciousness raising in your own community." I thought that this community would be the sort of place where that work would be done.
But that work hasn't been done here. And I'm not talking about creepy Iron John Men's Movement bogus stuff, I'm talking real feminist engagement with masculinity and maleness. Debunking and recreating maleness.
I'd like more of that. But maybe this community means to be Feminist 101 for men (i.e. "Hey doofus! Women have it bad, here is how!"--which doesn't actually debunk male because it doesn't put the spotlight on male). But I'd love it if we got to a higher level and really did debunk some male.
My 2 cents.
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If this community wants debunking male to be about male identified people discussing women's experiences primarily, that is a choice the community can make. Perhaps this community is meant to be a Feminist 101 community, where men who had no idea that there is sexism or that women suffer or that there is a patriarchy come here are are educated that sexism exists and hurts women...indeed that men no matter how great they think they are, are implicated in women's oppression. But after that? Then what?
Back in the 70s when women did consciousness raising in order to help combat internalized sexism, they didn't spend most of their time talking about men. I was hoping this would be a much needed space for men to actually do the consciousness raising to unlearn the toxic masculinity that upholds patriarchy. You know, so that women don't actually have to do that work...the work that men have to take responsibility and do.
But that may not be this community.
There are many men who have learned that sexism has impacted women but who still haven't internalized the ways in which they personally are part of that system. They haven't actually done any good feminist analysis of their own position in society.
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I think very often when men focus on women's oppression, especially those "feminist allies," it is actually just a way to avoid looking at themselves and doing work to change themselves to combat sexism.
Focusing on women's oppression exclusively, as this community has been doing recently, basically gives men a pass to feel like they are doing some while actually not doing anything to lessing sexism--which comes from men.
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Ah. Thanks for putting that to words.
Focusing on women's oppression exclusively, as this community has been doing recently, basically gives men a pass to feel like they are doing some while actually not doing anything to lessing sexism--which comes from men.
I'd say “... comes from systemic patriarchy, which privileges men.” The consequent responsibility for men to correct the injustice is the same either way.
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I agree with this. I am certain that trooper6 agrees with this.
How can we say more clearly that we want a discussion which thoughtfully includes the impact of patriarchy on men without being dominated by that?
Reply
Reply
Reply
Communities have norms. People who come in and try to change those norms without community assent or discussion I find are generally folks with an overabundance of privilege and/or jerks and/or inconsiderate. So I'm not about to start populating this community with discussions that are out of the norms for this community out of no where. That would be rude.
This is the first time since I've been watching this community that the mods have opened up discussion of what people here want the community norms to be. So it seemed this would be the most appropriate time to bring it up so the community can have a discussion about it.
This community may actually prefer it to be a place where people make posts that say, "Sexism hurts women! Here's a link! Thoughts?" If that's what the community wants, then I'm not about to violate those community norms. But I wanted to have a conversation about it.
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