Comments | deathtocapslock: Could Tom Riddle really build a following in school

tygershark in deathtocapslock

Could Tom Riddle really build a following in school

Aug 04, 2020 16:37

As we all know the books left a lot of questions unanswered. So many things are contradictory and just flat out don't make any sense.

I've often thought about Tom Riddle's time at Hogwarts and those memories that Dumbledore showed Harry. Many of the things Dumbles told Harry didn't make any sense. Worse some of the reasons he gave Harry for the ( Read more... )

muggleborns, salazar slytherin, slytherins, half-bloods, alternative universe, gaunt family, theory, half blood prince, tom riddle, harry, malfoys, albus dumbledore, voldemort, horace slughorn, education at hogwarts

Comments 14

vermouth1991 August 4 2020, 22:34:03 UTC

https://archiveofourown.org/works/13844247/chapters/32196621

In chapter 8 of her fanfic, "Come Once Again And Love Me" (it is a time-travel-of-the-mind premise, think what happened with Wolverine in "X-Men Days Of Future Past"), @laventadorn had Severus and Lily sit down and discuss just why were so many Slytherins attracted to Dark Lords, and it was some of the best meta analysis in a plot & character driven HP fic I've ever seen.

tygershark August 5 2020, 00:12:45 UTC

Sounds interesting I'll check it out. Thanks for the link.

aikaterini August 6 2020, 15:18:08 UTC

/I know Dumbledore tells Harry that he believed Tom did it by virtue of his Parslemouth ability, his charm, good looks, and superior intellect ( ... )

dorea_ysleen August 6 2020, 16:41:54 UTC

What if it's not purity of blood that the Slytherins actually care about, but wizarding traditions? In Madame Malkin's Draco tells Harry that muggleborns shouldn't be allowed at Hogwarts because "they don't know our ways ( ... )

sunnyskywalker August 7 2020, 04:04:25 UTC

It's very odd how we keep hearing that Slytherins are obsessed with blood purity, but in practice, they cheerfully welcome scruffy kids with Muggle surnames. I mean, maybe things are different behind the closed doors of the Slytherin common room than in public, but we don't know that they are. And maybe they treat the half-bloods as second-tier friends (useful and sometimes great fun, you know, but not people you'd want to marry your sisters)--but this doesn't seem especially worse than the rest of the wizarding world, so why blame the Slytherins alone? Gryffindor McGonagall is horrified at the the thought of leaving a wizard baby with the Dursleys after watching them eat breakfast and gossip with the neighbors. What's so horrifying, unless it's their fashion sense or that they're Muggles? Or maybe she's horrified that 16-month-old Dudley threw a tantrum. Because she's never met a toddler before, or because she has different and really scary ideas about child discipline ( ... )

aikaterini August 7 2020, 19:54:02 UTC

/He didn't seem to have ever tried charming people pre-Hogwarts, so it would probably take him time to learn those manipulative skills ( ... )

sunnyskywalker August 8 2020, 02:52:37 UTC

Oh, yes, I think that is a plausible reason why he changed tactics. I'm just wondering how he learned to charm people, and how long it took. Instinctive Legilimency? Observing Dumbledore? And was it a few months, or a few years before he really succeeded? (People sometimes retcon their own memories based on what happened later, so if Tom was popular from, say, the middle of third year on, people might forget that they barely noticed him for the first year and then only noticed him a bit the second, and so on.)

I really wonder how much Tom's looks helped him. Lockhart demonstrates his ineptitude blatantly and publicly on numerous occasions, but he's apparently gotten away with this for years because of his fabulous hair and dazzling smile. (He can't have Oblivated everyone.) Maybe wizards are even greater suckers for good looks than we are?

And there's always self-delusion and good old-fashioned hypocrisy. If purebloods are the most magically talented, and Tom is ridiculously talented, then he must be pureblood, QED. He doesn't know ( ... )

oryx_leucoryx August 8 2020, 04:12:16 UTC

And there's always self-delusion and good old-fashioned hypocrisy. If purebloods are the most magically talented, and Tom is ridiculously talented, then he must be pureblood, QED.

Slughorn's words in the memory add up to that. Tom says his background might be a hindrance in the Ministry, Slughorn responds with saying that his talent must mean he comes from the best wizarding stock or words to that effect.

tygershark August 12 2020, 21:12:58 UTC

All very good points. Yet again it shows the disconnect between what the books said and what was shown. In the narrative that JKR set up Tom Riddle should not have been able to use his charisma to gather followers.

Slughorn's words in the memory add up to that. Tom says his background might be a hindrance in the Ministry, Slughorn responds with saying that his talent must mean he comes from the best wizarding stock or words to that effect.

Again here is what I perceive as a disconnect. Sluggy says Tom's talent and possible pureblood background will carry him. But in the case of the Ministry, there is only one Muggleborn mentioned who is at an above entry-level position, Dirk Cresswell. He was forced out for falsifying his background as I recall. Then he went on the run when they were rounding up the muggleborns. If he had to falsify his Geneology that suggests the Ministry has a policy of either not hiring or promoting muggleborn.

oryx_leucoryx August 14 2020, 07:16:25 UTC

When I read it I thought he falsified his genealogy after the takeover of the Ministry.

sunnyskywalker August 26 2020, 03:28:01 UTC

Yes, wasn't there a sudden cottage industry in falsified genealogies then? Even Umbridge started flaunting her "Selwyn locket."

sunnyskywalker August 26 2020, 03:34:08 UTC

I've been thinking more about this, and I think Tom's popularity could work in stages ( ... )

aikaterini August 27 2020, 16:08:26 UTC

This sounds like a compelling backstory. :) In this version, would Tom open the Chamber of Secrets to prove his merits to his pureblood classmates, to eliminate Muggle-borns because he genuinely felt contempt for them, or both?

Also, Tom's motive of revenge for being used reminds me of a theory I saw on Jodel's Red Hen website where he determined to use everyone before they used him. Unless Tom's grudge lasted for the rest of his life, though, I still don't see how it connects to his desire for immortality. If he's immortal and the most powerful wizard alive, then I don't see why he needs to use or hate anyone, be they pureblood or Muggle-born. He's already achieved immortality and he's already an extremely powerful wizard, so what more power does he want and why does he want it?

sunnyskywalker August 28 2020, 01:10:26 UTC

Or because he liked the rush of getting away with letting out a deadly monster, and stirring up fear and hatred between different segments of wizarding society was a bonus? Muggle-borns might just have been easier targets to start with. Getting accepted by purebloods gave him access to their useful social networks, which would make eventually destroying them easier. He wouldn't need to use them or hate them, but how many people do, really? It's often some kind of warped emotional need rather than strictly practical.

Other possibilities: his position as the most powerful wizard would be more secure if he were the only wizard. Or wizards are just more exciting prey than Muggles (who can't fight back ( ... )