On Human Sacrfice and Dark Magic

[annoni_no]

I've spent some time archive binging recently and got to thinking about what the new conclusions meant for old issues that weren't directly addressed.  In particular, I was reminded of all the old complaints about Lily's sacrifice being held up as exceptional even though most parents would die for their children.  And if sacrificial magic is as

Comments

[sweettalkeress]

James died so his wife could save their son.

Interesting. So, do you think this is meant to be seen as ultimate proof that James is a True Hero(TM) after all? Like, he might have been a complete bastard in every other respect but he was willing to trigger Special Sacrificial Love Magic by martyring himself for his family and that somehow cancels out all his former crimes?

[annoni_no]

Uh, where did you get that from? Even bad people can have loved ones. Lucius loves Narcissa and Draco, do you want to argue that he's not a bigoted, murderous arse? Severus despises James, does that mean he's incapable of loving Lily, or anyone else? Are you looking for a fight? Or is it simply verbotten to say a villainous character has any redeemable features whatsoever

[mary_j_59]

This is interesting, and does seem to hang together. But I thought the whole point about Lily, and what rendered her death different from that of the brave German mother, was that Voldemort genuinely intended to let her live. The other woman was not given a chance to reject her life and sacrifice herself; Voldemort just killed her.

And the fact that Lily had a choice at all is Snape's doing.

But, as I said, this idea of how sacrifice seems to work in the Potterverse does hang together, and your ending is quite chilling -- and, I'd say, consistent with canon.

[annoni_no]

I am 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% positive that information about how Lily having a genuine choice was the deciding factor was from an interview, not canon. Thus, I feel it really doesn't matter. At all. Especially since I think this hangs together much better. Besides, the German woman did have a choice! She could have tried to run and save herself, but instead tried to protect her children.

I do think that the 3 offers made a big difference in amplifying the *power* of her sacrifice to the absurd levels we see in canon, so she can thank Severus for that. But I think that the reasons they amplified her power was because 3 is an arithmatically powerful number, it ritualized the sacrifice, giving it more structure (if rituals didn't matter at all, wizardry wouldn't be any easier than Dark magic, would it?) and, possibly, because it increased Lily's pain by tempting her away from her chosen path thus intensifying her sacrifice.

[jana_ch]

I suspect the business about Lily having a choice because Severus begged for her life, thus making her death a True Sacrifice, is pure fan interpretation, not anything from JKR. I have certainly put it forward often enough that if there was no Man Who Loved, there would have been no Boy Who Lived. As far as I can tell, JKR has never explicitly made the connexion. Her idea seems to be that Lily’s mother love is just that special. Can anyone cite a genuine semi-canon source (interviews, Pottermore, etc.) on this issue?

I agree with you that JKR probably intended the three offers to step aside to imply some sort of ritual meaning, but the whole scene was so chaotic (Voldemort snarling like an impatient traffic cop, Lily bawling like an hysterical five-year-old) that it gives no impression of having deeper significance. I would expect Ancient Deep Magic to involve a bit more sense of drama.

[annoni_no]

I don't think the 3 offers acted like a true ritual in any way; it was more of a proto-ritual than anything. But it did add pressure to Lily's resolve making her sacrifice more difficult. It called to mind the blood-letting practices in Meso-America where it wasn't enough to simply pierce an organ and let the blood flow out naturally: a string with thorns or bits of obsidian or something else would often be pulled through the wound to increase the blood and the pain and thus intensify the power in the offering

[vermouth1991]

You want the short story? Nothing was specified in canon. Which wouldn't be that bad a thing, except we're never really lacking of cases where a mother throws her child out of the way when an incoming bus comes crashing through.

[annoni_no]

Lily's sacrifice and the protective magic it produced is the only reason we have a plot. And we do have the counter example of the German mother who likewise threw herself in front of a killing curse for her children, but did not generate the protective magic that saved Harry.

These are both irrefutably canon. As is the classification of human sacrifice as Dark magic, and the information on what Dark magic entails (intent and will).

What's your explanation for why one differed from the other?

[jana_ch]

I don’t remember any canon explanation about what Dark magic entails, at all. We are told that in order to perform Cruciatus, “you have to mean it,” but that’s only one Dark spell, and it was presented as a bit of mockery in battle from someone not known for clarity of mind. All theories about chaos and intent and will-even the idea that children’s accidental magic is Dark-is fanon speculation. JKR’s refusal to define Dark magic in any meaningful way is one of the biggest failures of her world-building. Fans have done yeoman’s service trying to make sense of it, but it remains fanon, not canon. It’s one of the many reasons I prefer good fanfic to the actual books.

[annoni_no]

I could have sworn Snape said something to similar effect in his introductory speech to his DADA class. If you say he didn't, I'll believe you since I don't have the books to double check.

I will say that Bellatrix's statement is at least consistent with what we saw of Harry's casting. Yes, he was furious with her and (a part of) him wanted to hurt her horribly, but mostly he was in a general turmoil over Sirius's death. So, he got a little effect, but he couldn't sustain it because he wasn't focused on it.

Also, it's more reasonable than not to assume that assume that she's well versed in the Dark Arts, and "You have to mean them," sounds about as foundational as saying, "If you want to use a computer, you have to turn it on."

*shrugs* I wouldn't take any detailed statements at face value from her, but we know she's functioning well enough at this point to be sent on the raid and act effectively. I think the general concept can be trusted as largely factual, if over-simplified and incomplete.

[hwyla]

While this is a very interesting concept, the only problem is what JKR has had canon say on the matter - unless of course it was a lie (always possible when dealing with Albus' explanations).

Supposedly, the reason Lily's sacrifice worked was all down to the fact that Voldy intended to allow her to live, but Lily did not know this. So, it seems she had no way to 'plan' a sacrifice IF what we were told in canon was truthful. You cannot plan a sacrifice if Voldy intends to kill everyone = and why would they suspect that he wouldn't. As far as canon suggests, if anyone in the house might normally not be killed when Voldy attacked, it would be Harry - at least according to Hagrid.

We do not even have any indications that Lily and James were aware that Harry was the reason to go into hiding - that he was the one Voldy was after, not them.

I do rather like the idea, since it means James was not quite so stupid in leaving his wand on the couch, nor Lily for leaving hers wherever it was. But it would also change the importance of Snape's

[tatgoat]

What we always dismiss (except in some fics) is that Lily was ab exceptional student like Hermione or Tom - so why would that girl be a mere sitting duck if her baby or whole family was threatened??? Who's to say that she wouldn't have found a ritual -light or dark it doesn't matter- and protected her child???
Funny thing with that theory it doesn't make a lie of what Dumbledore told Harry just conceals some things:DDP