I started replying to a comment posted to "I Would Sell Out the Nation," but it developed into a rather long post thinking my way through some things. And talking more about Snape, of course. I’m just thinking out loud here though
( Read more... )
Part One (I'm formating thoughts one bit at a time :-) vermouth1991September 7 2015, 12:02:00 UTC
This essay (and the "arc" of essays that condwiramurs has been doing lately) really encapsulates why I love this livejournal group so much. Not that the essays and recaps that came before this are in any way lesser works, but this whole deal of digging into the WW's whole taken-for-grantedness of Secrecy really is shaking the core of the fictional universe and making us readers reevaluate just how decayed this world really is. Now I'm not blaming Rowling for writing the world this way (same as I won't blame Irvine Welsh for writing about the underbelly of Scotland that's infested with heroin addicts) but not realizing it herself, I won't say there's any malicious intent on her part in doing this; however, I am going to express a lot of sorrow here that a lot of her readers (which includes myself) could never see this deep into things, and a lot of them won't ever find places such as here to share and learn such things.
... in the least-clear/potentially-best case, the post-wedding revelation of his wife’s magic was “a bit of a nasty shock” for Finnigan’s father.
I brought this point up in the forum of a very respectable Harry Potter podcast (the female host in question had talked about how marriage was sacred , but was either ignored or never caught their attention enough, and I wonder what my fellow DTCLers think about it:
Hi there! i've been listening to this four-parter podcast, and I'd like to say a few words re: Seamus's mother and her deception regarding the wedding.
The actual discussion in the podcast actually went smoother than I though, but I still can't bring myself to agree with [female panelist]'s view that something as big as being a witch or wizard could be concealed during the dating/courting days and only to be revealed to the other party on the wedding night (and possibly after consummating) and then expect the marriage to have enough trust to go on.
{I apologize for not remembering the panelist's name; I listened to the podcast in segments with hours' worth of pauses in between, and I can't seem to be able to cross-reference the "Hi, I'm []" section in the front with any given line afterwards}.
Another panelist -- I think it might be [ ] -- tried to make a real-life example such as not revealing that one had a conflicting religion with the husband, but it didn't sem to stick, to which I'd like to add: 1) In all the "Chicken Soup for the Couples' Soul"-esque examples where religion or race or whathaveyou did not stop love from blossoming, the two parties knew the differences from the beginning (e.g. the bloke's a Protestant while the gal's Catholic, and they're in the middle of Ireland) and fell in love in spite of those differences, there was no lying involved; 2) One person having something as supernatural as magic really is a factor that far trumps having a different skin color or conflicting religion or whatnot, at least imho, because it gives a very real and subtantial power difference into the relationship.
Interestingly, we've only seen male!Muggle/Witch pairings in canon so far (Mr and Mrs Finnigan, Tobias/Eileen, Tom/Merope etc.) as opposed to Wizard/female!Muggle relationships. i'd like to know: would [female panelist] still hold on to her "marriage is a solemn oath" "in sickness and in health" so firmly if the scenario had been a muggle girl marrying the man she loved, only for him to break out this huge secret after they'd slept together on their wedding night, that apart from the physical and social advantages he already has as a male, he also has a great supernatural power that she couldn't counter, coudn't take away from him, couldn't have herself and couldn't even hope to truly understand? Would [female panelist] be so forgiving to her real life partner if theoretically he's a wizard and never revealed that fact until they married/moved in together/started having a baby/etc.?
Re: Part One (I'm formating thoughts one bit at a time :-) hwylaSeptember 7 2015, 18:44:42 UTC
We do have two examples of wizards marrying muggle wives. Remus' parents and Dean Thomas' parents. Neither marriage is in the books.
Dean's birth father was a wizard who married and had at least one child with a muggle woman and NEVER told her he was a wizard. Not even after they married, nor once they had a child. Perhaps he might have told her once Dean began exhibiting accidental magic, but we do not know if he would have or not, since he was killed by Voldy while Dean was a baby. Obviously, Dean's father was living as a muggle (since his magic was hidden from his family). I have a great deal of trouble with the idea that he not only never mentioned his magic, but that the DEs might want to kill her and their child just because he married her.
We know very little about the Lupin marriage -- only the small bit from Pottermore. Hope Lupin is supposedly a muggle married to a wizard (Remus' parents). I do have a very uneasy feeling about it, even though nothing is overtly said about the power imbalance in it. But, then they married in the 1950s and so, Hope leaving her job to become a stay-at-home mom wouldn't have been unusual even if she married a muggle.
I think, truthfully that the time period these couples were in mattered a great deal for the success (despite imbalance) or non-success. Note that the only marriage (where the muggle is male) that seems healthy is Seamus' family -- who probably married in the '70s -- a time when the balance of power between a couple was becoming more level, even in the muggle world.
The question is very difficult to decide regarding TomSr/Merope because she not only had more power (magic) she actually used it over him (love potion). No way that would have worked.
The most obvious 'failure' was the Snape marriage. Not only did she have a power she COULD use over him, but Tobias presumably did have trouble with that, since he apparently expresses his physical power over her. We have no idea if she ever used magic to defend herself or Sev, but I tend to think that eventually her magic weakened (like Tonks' when she couldn't get Remus to love her (or at least admit to it depending on whether one thinks he did or didn't).
I do find it interesting that IF this theory is right, neither Seamus nor Remus (both literal halfbloods) had any real problems in Gryffindor. Whether that is because they were in Gryffindor or merely because Remus had powerful protectors/friends and Seamus' parents marriage is more accepted because it is later in time (much as mixed-race marriages are much more acceptable now than they were in the '60s
Toby and Eileenjana_chSeptember 7 2015, 20:32:51 UTC
Tobias presumably did have trouble with that, since he apparently expresses his physical power over her.
We have no indication that Tobias Snape physically abused his wife or son. We know they had an unhappy marriage, though we don’t know exactly what form that unhappiness took. We know little Sev witnessed at least one argument in which Tobias was able to cow Eileen verbally despite her superior power. (I like to believe it was from Toby that Severus inherited the force of personality that allows him to intimidate people by his mere presence.) We don’t know that Toby ever beat either of them, or that he was a drunkard, or that he couldn’t keep a job, or any of the other things one sees in fanon. All of them are possibilites, but no more than that.
I believe it was JOdel who posited that that particular memory was of Toby’s discovery of his wife’s and son’s magic. He was enraged at her deception, and she was cowering, not in fear of his violence (which she could easily counter) but in shame, because she knew his anger was justified. Severus would remember it as especially traumatic because it marked the point at which his da never loved him again. If, as seems likely, the discovery was due to Sev’s accidental magic, he would be sure it was all his own fault.
Again, this is only speculation, but it makes more sense than the idea that emotionally traumatized witches (but somehow never wizards) lose their magic and can be beaten up by muggles. If depression and heartbreak made wizards lose their power the way it seems to do with witches, Snape would be pushing a broom next to Argus Filch.
Re: Toby and EileenhwylaSeptember 12 2015, 15:32:21 UTC
I believe that the reason Snape has not lost his magic due to depression is because of a strength of mind, not because he was male. To me, this is the reason he calls Tonks 'weak' at the gate. She has allowed her depression to keep her from doing her job adequately. For Snape, it may have something to do with occlumency, but it might just be a case of intense determination.
As for Eileen's 'cowering', I really don't think that people appear that way from a verbal attack without a impression of physical menace. Upset, guilty, shamed, yes, but not usually frightened. And 'cowering' means frightened.
Although I will admit that she might be frightened if this is an argument where he is threatening to leave them? But I think she would appear more desperate than cowering.
Expressing physical power does not necessarily mean beating them. It can be very intimidating and frightening if he towers over her in anger or breaks objects near her (Sev got that throwing a jar of cockroaches from someone)
Perhaps I'm wrong and the scene described her as 'cowed', not 'cowering'? But I'm pretty sure that the 'cowed' was for Fenrir on the Tower.
The alternative to the idea that Eileen did NOT lose her magic is that she simply never cared that little Sev had to dress 'funny' and in ill-fitting clothes. Yes, she was a witch, however, even if she never left the house (unlikely, I doubt Tobias went out to get the groceries), she would then have also never have looked out the window either. Their home was surrounded by other homes, all filled with muggles.
She either could not adjust his clothes with magic or she simply did not care that he was probably subjected to at least derision if not outright physical bullying by the boys in the neighborhood. Sev's life was bad enough. I must admit that I prefer to think she couldn't, over the idea that she wouldn't.
Although, again I admit that it IS possible that she didn't care at all. She certainly seemed uninterested in him at the station on his first trip to Hogwarts.
I suppose the only other alternative is that ALL the boys in his neighborhood were also possibly dressed just as badly?
Re: Toby and Eileenjana_chSeptember 14 2015, 03:51:44 UTC
I believe that the reason Snape has not lost his magic due to depression is because of a strength of mind, not because he was male. To me, this is the reason he calls Tonks ‘weak’ at the gate.
I quite agree that Severus is giving Tonks his version of a friendly warning when he comments on the weakness of her Patronus, not simply insulting her out of sheer nastiness, as Harry assumes. It’s hard to know whether he’s pointing out the on-going loss of her magic due to hopeless love, or warning her against the moral weakness of her love object. It may be both. He really does know Lupin’s spineless ways a lot better than she does, and would be the person in the best position to warn her against him, if his caustic manner didn’t guarantee his advise would be disregarded.
Severus’ mental strength and skill with occlumency may be protecting him from heartbreak-induced magic loss, but I find it a suspicious coincidence that it is the male character who has the mental discipline to resist such loss, while the poor weak female characters (Merope, Tonks, and possibly Eileen) crumble.
P.S. I’m four-foot-nine (144cm); I know all about how towering over someone is a form of intimidation, whether the taller person intends it conciously or not. But if I had magic powers to compensate for my genuine physical weakness, I would have less need to feel intimidated.
This essay (and the "arc" of essays that condwiramurs has been doing lately) really encapsulates why I love this livejournal group so much. Not that the essays and recaps that came before this are in any way lesser works, but this whole deal of digging into the WW's whole taken-for-grantedness of Secrecy really is shaking the core of the fictional universe and making us readers reevaluate just how decayed this world really is. Now I'm not blaming Rowling for writing the world this way (same as I won't blame Irvine Welsh for writing about the underbelly of Scotland that's infested with heroin addicts) but not realizing it herself, I won't say there's any malicious intent on her part in doing this; however, I am going to express a lot of sorrow here that a lot of her readers (which includes myself) could never see this deep into things, and a lot of them won't ever find places such as here to share and learn such things.
... in the least-clear/potentially-best case, the post-wedding revelation of his wife’s magic was “a bit of a nasty shock” for Finnigan’s father.
I brought this point up in the forum of a very respectable Harry Potter podcast (the female host in question had talked about how marriage was sacred , but was either ignored or never caught their attention enough, and I wonder what my fellow DTCLers think about it:
Hi there! i've been listening to this four-parter podcast, and I'd like to say a few words re: Seamus's mother and her deception regarding the wedding.
The actual discussion in the podcast actually went smoother than I though, but I still can't bring myself to agree with [female panelist]'s view that something as big as being a witch or wizard could be concealed during the dating/courting days and only to be revealed to the other party on the wedding night (and possibly after consummating) and then expect the marriage to have enough trust to go on.
{I apologize for not remembering the panelist's name; I listened to the podcast in segments with hours' worth of pauses in between, and I can't seem to be able to cross-reference the "Hi, I'm []" section in the front with any given line afterwards}.
Another panelist -- I think it might be [ ] -- tried to make a real-life example such as not revealing that one had a conflicting religion with the husband, but it didn't sem to stick, to which I'd like to add: 1) In all the "Chicken Soup for the Couples' Soul"-esque examples where religion or race or whathaveyou did not stop love from blossoming, the two parties knew the differences from the beginning (e.g. the bloke's a Protestant while the gal's Catholic, and they're in the middle of Ireland) and fell in love in spite of those differences, there was no lying involved; 2) One person having something as supernatural as magic really is a factor that far trumps having a different skin color or conflicting religion or whatnot, at least imho, because it gives a very real and subtantial power difference into the relationship.
Interestingly, we've only seen male!Muggle/Witch pairings in canon so far (Mr and Mrs Finnigan, Tobias/Eileen, Tom/Merope etc.) as opposed to Wizard/female!Muggle relationships. i'd like to know: would [female panelist] still hold on to her "marriage is a solemn oath" "in sickness and in health" so firmly if the scenario had been a muggle girl marrying the man she loved, only for him to break out this huge secret after they'd slept together on their wedding night, that apart from the physical and social advantages he already has as a male, he also has a great supernatural power that she couldn't counter, coudn't take away from him, couldn't have herself and couldn't even hope to truly understand? Would [female panelist] be so forgiving to her real life partner if theoretically he's a wizard and never revealed that fact until they married/moved in together/started having a baby/etc.?
Reply
Dean's birth father was a wizard who married and had at least one child with a muggle woman and NEVER told her he was a wizard. Not even after they married, nor once they had a child. Perhaps he might have told her once Dean began exhibiting accidental magic, but we do not know if he would have or not, since he was killed by Voldy while Dean was a baby. Obviously, Dean's father was living as a muggle (since his magic was hidden from his family). I have a great deal of trouble with the idea that he not only never mentioned his magic, but that the DEs might want to kill her and their child just because he married her.
We know very little about the Lupin marriage -- only the small bit from Pottermore. Hope Lupin is supposedly a muggle married to a wizard (Remus' parents). I do have a very uneasy feeling about it, even though nothing is overtly said about the power imbalance in it. But, then they married in the 1950s and so, Hope leaving her job to become a stay-at-home mom wouldn't have been unusual even if she married a muggle.
I think, truthfully that the time period these couples were in mattered a great deal for the success (despite imbalance) or non-success. Note that the only marriage (where the muggle is male) that seems healthy is Seamus' family -- who probably married in the '70s -- a time when the balance of power between a couple was becoming more level, even in the muggle world.
The question is very difficult to decide regarding TomSr/Merope because she not only had more power (magic) she actually used it over him (love potion). No way that would have worked.
The most obvious 'failure' was the Snape marriage. Not only did she have a power she COULD use over him, but Tobias presumably did have trouble with that, since he apparently expresses his physical power over her. We have no idea if she ever used magic to defend herself or Sev, but I tend to think that eventually her magic weakened (like Tonks' when she couldn't get Remus to love her (or at least admit to it depending on whether one thinks he did or didn't).
I do find it interesting that IF this theory is right, neither Seamus nor Remus (both literal halfbloods) had any real problems in Gryffindor. Whether that is because they were in Gryffindor or merely because Remus had powerful protectors/friends and Seamus' parents marriage is more accepted because it is later in time (much as mixed-race marriages are much more acceptable now than they were in the '60s
Reply
We have no indication that Tobias Snape physically abused his wife or son. We know they had an unhappy marriage, though we don’t know exactly what form that unhappiness took. We know little Sev witnessed at least one argument in which Tobias was able to cow Eileen verbally despite her superior power. (I like to believe it was from Toby that Severus inherited the force of personality that allows him to intimidate people by his mere presence.) We don’t know that Toby ever beat either of them, or that he was a drunkard, or that he couldn’t keep a job, or any of the other things one sees in fanon. All of them are possibilites, but no more than that.
I believe it was JOdel who posited that that particular memory was of Toby’s discovery of his wife’s and son’s magic. He was enraged at her deception, and she was cowering, not in fear of his violence (which she could easily counter) but in shame, because she knew his anger was justified. Severus would remember it as especially traumatic because it marked the point at which his da never loved him again. If, as seems likely, the discovery was due to Sev’s accidental magic, he would be sure it was all his own fault.
Again, this is only speculation, but it makes more sense than the idea that emotionally traumatized witches (but somehow never wizards) lose their magic and can be beaten up by muggles. If depression and heartbreak made wizards lose their power the way it seems to do with witches, Snape would be pushing a broom next to Argus Filch.
Reply
As for Eileen's 'cowering', I really don't think that people appear that way from a verbal attack without a impression of physical menace. Upset, guilty, shamed, yes, but not usually frightened. And 'cowering' means frightened.
Although I will admit that she might be frightened if this is an argument where he is threatening to leave them? But I think she would appear more desperate than cowering.
Expressing physical power does not necessarily mean beating them. It can be very intimidating and frightening if he towers over her in anger or breaks objects near her (Sev got that throwing a jar of cockroaches from someone)
Perhaps I'm wrong and the scene described her as 'cowed', not 'cowering'? But I'm pretty sure that the 'cowed' was for Fenrir on the Tower.
The alternative to the idea that Eileen did NOT lose her magic is that she simply never cared that little Sev had to dress 'funny' and in ill-fitting clothes. Yes, she was a witch, however, even if she never left the house (unlikely, I doubt Tobias went out to get the groceries), she would then have also never have looked out the window either. Their home was surrounded by other homes, all filled with muggles.
She either could not adjust his clothes with magic or she simply did not care that he was probably subjected to at least derision if not outright physical bullying by the boys in the neighborhood. Sev's life was bad enough. I must admit that I prefer to think she couldn't, over the idea that she wouldn't.
Although, again I admit that it IS possible that she didn't care at all. She certainly seemed uninterested in him at the station on his first trip to Hogwarts.
I suppose the only other alternative is that ALL the boys in his neighborhood were also possibly dressed just as badly?
Reply
I quite agree that Severus is giving Tonks his version of a friendly warning when he comments on the weakness of her Patronus, not simply insulting her out of sheer nastiness, as Harry assumes. It’s hard to know whether he’s pointing out the on-going loss of her magic due to hopeless love, or warning her against the moral weakness of her love object. It may be both. He really does know Lupin’s spineless ways a lot better than she does, and would be the person in the best position to warn her against him, if his caustic manner didn’t guarantee his advise would be disregarded.
Severus’ mental strength and skill with occlumency may be protecting him from heartbreak-induced magic loss, but I find it a suspicious coincidence that it is the male character who has the mental discipline to resist such loss, while the poor weak female characters (Merope, Tonks, and possibly Eileen) crumble.
P.S. I’m four-foot-nine (144cm); I know all about how towering over someone is a form of intimidation, whether the taller person intends it conciously or not. But if I had magic powers to compensate for my genuine physical weakness, I would have less need to feel intimidated.
Reply
Leave a comment