Perfect Slytherinjana_chOctober 29 2014, 02:04:28 UTC
Albus is such a perfect Slytherin that, if he indeed was a Gryffindor, he had to have been Sorted there at his own insistence. A cunning, ambitious Slytherin can get away with a lot if he’s publicly identified as a brave, bold Gryffindor. My story “Sal’s Hat” has been halted for a considerable time because I haven’t been able to write eleven-year-old Albus’s conversation with Salazar’s yarmulke when it, unlike Godric’s hat, refuses to accede to his request.
The idea of Albus as Head of Slytherin House, however, is one that has never crossed my mind. I like it a lot, but I’m not sure that it works. I could easily believe Albus could contrive to conceal the fact that he was a Slytherin student in the 1890s, but a position as Head of Slytherin House in the 1940s would be too widely known by too many people still alive and active in the wizarding world. Successfully suppressing that knowledge would be a bit of a stretch, even for Albus. How could it have been left out of Rita’s book? Even with Obliviation and blackmail, there would be far too many written records that could not be wiped out or forged.
Regarding pre-Express travel to Hogwarts: in Aurette’s Regency-era AU story “Of Muggles and Magic,” the students fly in Thestral carriages from just outside the Leaky Cauldron. In their second year, Harry and Ron are locked in the men’s room by Dobby until after the carriages leave, and fly to Hogwarts in Arthur’s dubiously-legal coach-a-bower pulled by ghost horses. It’s one of Aurette’s best, which is saying something. I heartily recommend it.
Re: Perfect Slytherinterri_testingOctober 29 2014, 03:06:41 UTC
Fidelius. In which Albus was an expert, and didn't teach others nearly all he knew. Now that we know that one can be one's own Secret-Keeper....
What did Filius say? "As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window!"
In other words, you could look right at the kept Secret and never see it. Never. No matter what your senses tried to tell you, you could not see.
If Albus's House was the Kept Secret, no one could see or remember any evidence that contradicted it.
All he'd have to do in addition is modify the Hogwarts records (surely easy enough for a headmaster to do) and Horace's memories, to match the new information that Horace had been appointed Head of Slytherin in year X, not in 1957. And anyone who thought s/he remembered otherwise would founder in confusion trying to come up with who else could have been head of house. When there were no other Slytherin teachers at Hogwarts at that time, everyone knows that.
Head of House is a Hogwarts internal matter; most of the records would have been under Albus's control for 30 years.
Given how remote and negligent Albus is in canon, even with his supposed "favorite" Harry, Albus is unlikely to have had to remove many alumni memories of Albus acting more like head of house than Horace.... And any Slytherin who remembered receiving Horace's specific help and attention as a Slug Club member, could in retrospect be encouraged to parse that as house partiality.
You know, now that I think of it, the Fidelius must be really, REALLY Dark Magic.
Powered by human sacrifice, or the offer thereof. Right. And broken if (and only if) the sacrifice withdraws hir consent to die to keep the secret.
Re: Ravenclaw Manqueterri_testingOctober 29 2014, 03:38:32 UTC
As to Albus's sorting... it's totally obvious he should have accepted the Hat (or yarmulke's) recommendation and gone to his heart's home--well, his head's home--of Ravenclaw. He'd have done absolutely no harm to anyone continuing on getting more and mroe academic awards.
But no, he HAD to insist on Slytherin, to which he was ill-suited(and which he came to blame for his own failings). Really, can you imagine Phineas or Severus hesitating to act on what they knew because they were AWAITING EVIDENCE TO PROVE IT?
Totally a Ravenclaw weakness, and so Ravenclaws ought never to attempt Slytherin schemes. It can only come back to bite them! Look at poor Xeno!
My theory was, Albus respected his Slytherin mother for holding his family together after their great tragedy,and insisted on the house in her honor. But you could easily write it that Albus mistook (then and always) the nature of ambition, just as he did courage...
So go WRITE, already, Jana! (Not but what my own effort to write young Albus was criticized--so, do better.)
Re: Ravenclaw Manquejana_chOctober 29 2014, 20:09:23 UTC
Ravenclaw Albus?
Nooo, nasty evil Albus can’t belong to MY House! We’re all rational and abstracted and harmless. It’s true we never actually accomplish much, but we have such fun analyzing things. And we never mean it personally! Really, anyone who gets offended doesn’t have the proper perspective.
What's the difference between being pompous and being pedantic? If you're pompous, you want to be recognized as right, like a Gryffindor. If you're pedantic, you want to get the information right, like a Ravenclaw. If you're wrong and someone corrects you, you must grit your teeth and thank him politely, because it means you'll never make the same mistake again. No one likes being shown to be wrong, but Ravenclaw has its own rules.
You're right, of course, that us 'Claws make terrible Slytherins. When I was young I liked to imagine that I would be a Slytherin when I grew up, but I really don't have what it takes.
Re: Ravenclaw Manqueoryx_leucoryxOctober 30 2014, 03:02:11 UTC
But what would he have turned out like as a Ravenclaw? He wouldn't have developed that manipulative side so much, would have concentrated on abstract things, actually achieved understanding of the depths of magical theory, instead of just enough to form the basis for not-so-well thought out plans. Overall, caused less damage.
Re: Ravenclaw Manqueterri_testingOctober 30 2014, 06:51:18 UTC
Heh! You-all have inspired me to go back and re-read the great Albus-is-a-closeted-and-denying Slytherin easay (Swythyv), and hir correspondant Jodel's Dumbledore-is-really-a-Ravenclaw one.
But really, Dumbledore as a Gryffindork??! Seriously, Jana, when do we see his fault as being going off half-cocked? If he did succeed in conning the hat into placing him into that house, ON HERMIONE'S GROUNDS THAT AMBITION COULD BEST BE SATISFIED BY THAT PLACEMENT, he totally disgraced himself with his housemates, waiting for some conspicuous act of un-self-serving action to redeem is tendencies to brood, plot, and issue explanations of why he hadn't acted in a crisis....
The only placement for which Albus would have been worse-adapted than Gryffindork is Hufflepuff. Catch him cooperating as one among equals!
Re: Ravenclaw Manquejana_chOctober 30 2014, 07:54:21 UTC
I totally agree that Gryffindor is not an appropriate House for Dumbledore. If he in fact *was* a Gryffindor (which is not proven just because Hermione "heard" he was), he could only have gotten there by requesting it specifically and having the Hat accede. My premise in "Sal's Hat" is that, while Godric's hat takes requests, Salazar's yarmulke does not unless it's a choice between two Houses that are equally appropriate--such as Hermione in any House but Hufflepuff (she's loyal enough, but she doesn't make friends), or Severus in any House at all.
I don't think Gryffindors are actually *required* to go off half-cocked. They just tend to feel that "Don't just stand there, do something!" is a good philosophy for living. Ravenclaws, as you say, prefer, "Don't just do something, stand there!" The latter is a seriously underrated philosophy, being actually quite helpful in things like avoiding unwanted pregnancies and land wars in Asia, but counter-productive when dealing with Dark Lords and global warming.
I think this discussion is going to help me in formulating Chapter Five of "Sal's Hat." I really need more complexity than merely having Albus want Gryffindor in order to disguise his Slytherin ambition and cunning. Adding Ravenclaw to the mix might do the trick. I also need to read some late-nineteenth and early-twentieth century children's literature in order to get the right "voice" for eleven-year-old Albus Dumbledore, child of Victorian Britain.
Re: Ravenclaw Manqueterri_testingOctober 30 2014, 14:14:19 UTC
Avoiding unwanted pregnancies and land wars in Asia--snerk! As you say, there's a time for that philosophy. But Albus clearly takes satisfaction in understanding things better than anyone else, and he feels no especial interest in acting on his understanding...
What a hardship--having to reread children's lit. But bear in mind you can go pre-Victorian too--at least half of Albus's family is Pureblood, so his voice will be influenced by that.
(But that photograph seemed all Victorian/Edwardian, so maybe Kendra's Muggle background counted for more....)
Re: Ravenclaw Manqueioanna_ioanninaOctober 30 2014, 16:27:19 UTC
I can believe Albus tricked the Hat to put him in Gryffindor (where he did not belong) and that Albus there learned how to use Gryffindors for his purposes and to look down at everybody less litterate than himself. (I don't see Dumbledore as a great master of logic and consequences.) And from there can originate his praise for those (ambiguous) who "did it too" - who tricked the Hat like Albus and managed Gryffindor, even if their right house would be something else.
Gryffindor Albus.nx74defiantNovember 2 2014, 21:26:59 UTC
If he was in Gryffindor young Albus would have been as unpopular as Hermione.
But young Albus had more self-confidence than Hermione. He wouldn't have been crying in the bathroom. So instead he looks down on everyone else and learns to use them.
Re: Ravenclaw Manqueoryx_leucoryxOctober 30 2014, 19:45:19 UTC
BTW I don't think Salazar would call his head-covering a yarmulke. That's Yiddish, from Polish or Ukranian origins (maybe going back to Turkish). Though I have no idea what term a Spanish Jew would have used.
Sal's Languagejana_chOctober 31 2014, 03:45:44 UTC
That’s what I thought myself, and in the story I use the word ‘kippa.’ But duj, my fandom expert on matters Jewish, told me that kippa is modern Hebrew. ‘Yarmulka’ is Turkic or Aramaic and pre-dates Salazar’s time; it is not necessarily exclusive to the Ashkenazim. If the Sephardim had a word that was entirely their own, it is long lost, but ‘yarmulka’ is apparently the closent to an ‘authentic’ word we have.
If you have more solid information I’d be glad to learn it.
Re: Sal's Languageoryx_leucoryxOctober 31 2014, 18:16:52 UTC
Well, Livejournal won't let me link, but if you google yarmulka etymology, the first few pages should include a link to a 4-page article by Daniel D. Stuhlman from 2008. He traces the origins first to Latin amulcia and the diminutive form armulcella, becoming German almutz and aremutz, apparently as a head covering of a priest. From there one gets the Slavic forms. The Turkish yağmurluk meant 'rain-hat'. Jarmulca as a specific Jewish head covering can so far only be seen from the late 19th century.
His conclusions:
We have a word that came into German from the Latin and a similar word was taken by the Jews to Turkey where it was adapted in to Slavic languages. Mützchen is a diminutive form that took on the meaning of a “small cap.” Yarmulka entered Yiddish with both Slavic and Germanic sources that can both be traced to Latin. According to Plaut, none of this derivation story connects the word to a Jewish hat. We do have a word that has its origins in medieval clerical head covering that went both to German and Polish. The Yiddish word, yarmulke, referring to a Jewish head covering is a term that can only be traced to the later part of the 19th century. So far the skull cap version of the heading covering compared to the high sided section of a cylinder (or pill box) type head covering I can only trace to about the 1940’s. If anyone has older evidence I would appreciate seeing pictures. -------------
The claimed Aramaic derivation sounds like folk-etymology to me.
Re: Perfect Slytherinoryx_leucoryxOctober 31 2014, 13:59:26 UTC
As Terri says, no he is not a perfect Slytherin, but he has some appreciation of Slytherin methods. He does have a bit of 'don't just do something, stand there' to his typical action plan.
The idea of Albus as Head of Slytherin House, however, is one that has never crossed my mind. I like it a lot, but I’m not sure that it works. I could easily believe Albus could contrive to conceal the fact that he was a Slytherin student in the 1890s, but a position as Head of Slytherin House in the 1940s would be too widely known by too many people still alive and active in the wizarding world. Successfully suppressing that knowledge would be a bit of a stretch, even for Albus. How could it have been left out of Rita’s book? Even with Obliviation and blackmail, there would be far too many written records that could not be wiped out or forged.
Regarding pre-Express travel to Hogwarts: in Aurette’s Regency-era AU story “Of Muggles and Magic,” the students fly in Thestral carriages from just outside the Leaky Cauldron. In their second year, Harry and Ron are locked in the men’s room by Dobby until after the carriages leave, and fly to Hogwarts in Arthur’s dubiously-legal coach-a-bower pulled by ghost horses. It’s one of Aurette’s best, which is saying something. I heartily recommend it.
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What did Filius say? "As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window!"
In other words, you could look right at the kept Secret and never see it. Never. No matter what your senses tried to tell you, you could not see.
If Albus's House was the Kept Secret, no one could see or remember any evidence that contradicted it.
All he'd have to do in addition is modify the Hogwarts records (surely easy enough for a headmaster to do) and Horace's memories, to match the new information that Horace had been appointed Head of Slytherin in year X, not in 1957. And anyone who thought s/he remembered otherwise would founder in confusion trying to come up with who else could have been head of house. When there were no other Slytherin teachers at Hogwarts at that time, everyone knows that.
Head of House is a Hogwarts internal matter; most of the records would have been under Albus's control for 30 years.
Given how remote and negligent Albus is in canon, even with his supposed "favorite" Harry, Albus is unlikely to have had to remove many alumni memories of Albus acting more like head of house than Horace.... And any Slytherin who remembered receiving Horace's specific help and attention as a Slug Club member, could in retrospect be encouraged to parse that as house partiality.
You know, now that I think of it, the Fidelius must be really, REALLY Dark Magic.
Powered by human sacrifice, or the offer thereof. Right. And broken if (and only if) the sacrifice withdraws hir consent to die to keep the secret.
Hmph!
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But no, he HAD to insist on Slytherin, to which he was ill-suited(and which he came to blame for his own failings). Really, can you imagine Phineas or Severus hesitating to act on what they knew because they were AWAITING EVIDENCE TO PROVE IT?
Totally a Ravenclaw weakness, and so Ravenclaws ought never to attempt Slytherin schemes. It can only come back to bite them! Look at poor Xeno!
My theory was, Albus respected his Slytherin mother for holding his family together after their great tragedy,and insisted on the house in her honor. But you could easily write it that Albus mistook (then and always) the nature of ambition, just as he did courage...
So go WRITE, already, Jana! (Not but what my own effort to write young Albus was criticized--so, do better.)
Reply
Nooo, nasty evil Albus can’t belong to MY House! We’re all rational and abstracted and harmless. It’s true we never actually accomplish much, but we have such fun analyzing things. And we never mean it personally! Really, anyone who gets offended doesn’t have the proper perspective.
What's the difference between being pompous and being pedantic? If you're pompous, you want to be recognized as right, like a Gryffindor. If you're pedantic, you want to get the information right, like a Ravenclaw. If you're wrong and someone corrects you, you must grit your teeth and thank him politely, because it means you'll never make the same mistake again. No one likes being shown to be wrong, but Ravenclaw has its own rules.
You're right, of course, that us 'Claws make terrible Slytherins. When I was young I liked to imagine that I would be a Slytherin when I grew up, but I really don't have what it takes.
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But really, Dumbledore as a Gryffindork??! Seriously, Jana, when do we see his fault as being going off half-cocked? If he did succeed in conning the hat into placing him into that house, ON HERMIONE'S GROUNDS THAT AMBITION COULD BEST BE SATISFIED BY THAT PLACEMENT, he totally disgraced himself with his housemates, waiting for some conspicuous act of un-self-serving action to redeem is tendencies to brood, plot, and issue explanations of why he hadn't acted in a crisis....
The only placement for which Albus would have been worse-adapted than Gryffindork is Hufflepuff. Catch him cooperating as one among equals!
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I don't think Gryffindors are actually *required* to go off half-cocked. They just tend to feel that "Don't just stand there, do something!" is a good philosophy for living. Ravenclaws, as you say, prefer, "Don't just do something, stand there!" The latter is a seriously underrated philosophy, being actually quite helpful in things like avoiding unwanted pregnancies and land wars in Asia, but counter-productive when dealing with Dark Lords and global warming.
I think this discussion is going to help me in formulating Chapter Five of "Sal's Hat." I really need more complexity than merely having Albus want Gryffindor in order to disguise his Slytherin ambition and cunning. Adding Ravenclaw to the mix might do the trick. I also need to read some late-nineteenth and early-twentieth century children's literature in order to get the right "voice" for eleven-year-old Albus Dumbledore, child of Victorian Britain.
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What a hardship--having to reread children's lit. But bear in mind you can go pre-Victorian too--at least half of Albus's family is Pureblood, so his voice will be influenced by that.
(But that photograph seemed all Victorian/Edwardian, so maybe Kendra's Muggle background counted for more....)
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But young Albus had more self-confidence than Hermione. He wouldn't have been crying in the bathroom. So instead he looks down on everyone else and learns to use them.
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If you have more solid information I’d be glad to learn it.
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His conclusions:
We have a word that came into German from the Latin and a similar word was taken by the Jews to Turkey where it was adapted in to Slavic languages. Mützchen is a diminutive form that took on the meaning of a “small cap.” Yarmulka entered Yiddish with both Slavic and Germanic sources that can both be traced to Latin. According to Plaut, none of this derivation story connects the word to a Jewish hat. We do have a word that has its origins in medieval clerical head covering that went both to German and Polish. The Yiddish word, yarmulke, referring to a Jewish head covering is a term that can only be traced to the later part of the 19th century. So far the skull cap version of the heading covering compared to the high sided section of a cylinder (or pill box) type head covering I can only trace to about the 1940’s. If anyone has older evidence I would appreciate seeing pictures.
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The claimed Aramaic derivation sounds like folk-etymology to me.
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