Harry Potter and the Death Cult

[sweettalkeress]

So recently I was reading this (actually really excellent) Pokemon fanfic, which appears to have been an attempt to iron out a rather confusing Pokedex entry. Basically, the fanfic revolves around the idea that a certain species of Pokemon has a custom that all young male members of the community must kill their own mothers as a rite of passage.

Comments

[danajsparks]

What you are calling suicide, others would call martyrdom. Sacrificing oneself for a cause is currently rather out of fashion in the West, but that is a pretty recent development, I think. Historically, martyring oneself was often considered an acceptable, honorable, way to die, and many people still believe this today.

I think that the attitudes about martyrdom in the HP books are probably mostly a reflection of Rowling's religious beliefs and the influence of older literary traditions. I find them much less disturbing than some other aspects of the books.

[sunnyskywalker]

Dying for a cause when there's no other option and you really think it will help further a goal that's really that important, like saving lots of lives, is one thing (which we still have in a lot of stories - think of all the gruff military leaders in the movies who tell the men to go on, he'll cover for them...). But I think you're right, the HP books do seem to have a slightly different, older style of martyrdom where it's noble to die even if it won't particularly do any good as far as you know (Regulus being the prime example here

[sweettalkeress]

I don't doubt that there are ways in which accepting death can be noble, either to save someone else or to hold onto a core belief that you'd otherwise have to give up. But Harry Potter takes it way too far- everyone who commits suicide for any reason is presented as heroic (if they're good) or irredeemable (if they're evil) and almost nobody tries to find a way to solve problems that doesn't involve someone's death.

[sunnyskywalker]

Which is especially absurd when you consider how many options they often seem to have, yet don't take. I know a lot of people wondered if Harry could stick his forehead through the Veil or involve a Dementor to get rid of his Voldybit, and supposedly the Dementors were all over the place (not that we ever ran into any in DH, for some reason... why wasn't one gliding along by the diner they escaped to after the wedding, or wandering around Grimmauld Place?). And we have no reason to think that Lily couldn't have grabbed Harry and jumped out the window while Apparating away and floating down like when she was a kid other than "they were in so much danger that they needed a complex and rare (since Flitwick has to explain it to a crowd of mostly-competent adults in PoA) spell to hide them, but never bothered to make detailed escape plans and she panicked." No, they have to die dramatically. That isn't noble, it's careless! No escape plans? All those months of camping and they never wondered whether a Dementor or the Veil could destroy a

[sweettalkeress]

To be fair, it's possible that with a Dementor the risk of Harry also losing his own soul was too great a chance to take. It was never clear to me exactly what the veil was supposed to do, so it's possible that it just wouldn't do that- though you're right that they could have at least considered either option, so that at least there was a due thought process given to the idea that maybe Harry had no choice but to die (since we never in canon see anything destroy a Horcrux other than completely destroying or killing the object).

[sunnyskywalker]

Even if neither option could handle the Harrycrux, they could still toss the regular Horcruxes at a Dementor (and then drive it off with a Patronus if it doesn't work) or through the Veil and see what happens. And yeah, Harry could at least consider it for his scar, even if he decides it wont' work or is too risky and walking into an AK would actually have the lowest chance of endangering others.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Or since he learned from the 'Prince' how to make the perfect Draught of Living Death, use that to simulate his own death in order to protect his own soul from the dementor that would be 'invited' to take the Voldie-bit.

[annoni_no]

Does the Draught of Living Death actually simulate death, or is it just an overly poetic name for a very deep sleep? And even if we're talking "death" death, what kind of death? Cardiac arrest? Brain death? Genuine soul-as-it-exists-in-HP-verse-has-departed death? Would the deception even work on dementors or other types of magical creatures and/or spirits, which really don't seem to perceive the world in the same way human wizards do?

Rowling seems so determined to shut down every line of interpretation she doesn't approve of, but she left all the really interesting questions unanswered (or should have).

[oryx_leucoryx]

We 'know' (do we really?) dementors were confused by Sirius' dog form. My idea was that if the Draught blocks all mental activity the dementor would mistake the drinker for a dead person.

[annoni_no]

In Sirius' case though, it seems that the animagus transformation somehow fundamentally alters your thinking patterns and perception of the world. His emotions were 'simpler' as a dog, so even if the dementors weren't confused by that, per se, it's still possible that they didn't find such a meal appealing and/or the simplicity made it easier for *Sirius* to keep a grip on himself since there was less mental turmoil for to wade through. (Though what this stunt did for his mental health by itself

[for_diddled]

Harry doesn't know about the Voldiebit until halfway through the Battle of Hogwarts, by which time there's a good chance that all the defenders of Hogwarts will be overhwelmed and killed. I'm not sure he has enough time to consider many alternatives.

[condwiramurs]

True. But Dumbledore knew MUCH earlier. Snape knew too, although much later than Dumbles, and he was in a situation that would have made it difficult for him to do much experimenting. And it is a bit surprising that the Trio never thought about the Veil, etc. in regard to the other Horcruxes.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Harry finds out alone and doesn't share with anyone. But the forest and Hogsmeade were swarming with dementors. If only someone with half a brain was with him (for instance if Severus had told him while not dying) they might have come up with the thought that risking a dementor was better than certain death. Especially if Severus prepared some precautions for such an eventuality.

[sunnyskywalker]

Since Voldemort himself would have still been around as Harry's pseudo-Horcrux, then even if the Dementor did suck his soul out he might be able to pop back in after they'd drifted off to find more food. Harry wouldn't know that, but he might at least look at it as certain death vs. only almost certain death.

Also, since they spent the whole year trying to figure out how to destroy Horcruxes, they might have wondered whether they could sneak into Hogwarts and steal the fangs long ago, or whether there was any way to buy some venom in Knockturn Alley or something - and then since they had nothing else to do, they might have tried figuring out an antidote just in case they got some venom and accidentally poisoned themselves in the process. Because even if it's a long shot, wasn't the whole damn quest a long shot so they might as well prepare for everything they could?

[for_diddled]

To be fair to Dumbles, he didn't leave Harry completely without defence, since (IIRC) that whole "Voldemort himself must be the one to do it" thing was to make sure that only the Horcrux got destroyed. Although I suppose that even if Harry wasn't killed by Voldie's AK, he'd still be surrounded by Death Eaters who'd be able to finish him off, or Voldemort himself could have another go. I'm not sure what Dumbledore hoped would happen then. (That they'd all be too scared by Potter's survival to try again?)