but let us assume for a moment that there is some greater being floating out in the cosmos.
what makes you so convinced that this logical set of laws and forces and these chemicals that govern our bodies and everything around us aren't just the tools that this being chose to use to make this universe work?
consider this: years and years down the line, humans are extinct. they're survived by their mechanical creations - machines, robots, whatever. if some other species were to stumble upon our planet, they would find no traces of humans, just the robots. they would most likely assume the robots were just what evolved on this particular planet. they would come up with a set of laws based on the machines we created that they thought governed things on this planet. laws that just existed. but in truth, the machines, the laws, everything, would have been created by us, long before this other species came to know them. the parts of the machines and the laws that govern them were just the tools we devised to make them work.
i know it's a bit of a stretch, but it's something to think about.
i didn't proof-read this...it would have taken far too long...if there are errors, fucking deal with it:
i know what you're saying. you're right...there's no reason the laws couldn't have been put into place by god to keep things running smoothly. i think i stated (or intended to state, at least) above that i wasn't planning on elaborating on my argument for atheism, but since you don't seem to be taking my lack of faith personally, and since you're not attacking me, i'll run with it for a little bit.
it's not that i imagine that god CAN'T exist because all of the universe's laws make such perfect mathematical sense...i'm certain that if god is omniscient (which i sincerely doubt would be the case) like my sunday school teachers told me, he'd have no problem creating a fully self-sustainable universe...it's just that i've seen these laws in action...i've seen proof that these laws are true...and, up until this point, i have seen no quantifiable proof of a god...and i simply just can't take that "leap of faith" onto something without some scientifically provable fact at the bottom of its logic.
and believe me...it's not stubborness that's saying these things. i really WANT to believe in a god. at about seven, i would say, i probably stopped blindly following what my parents told me about religion...and, though i didn't admit this to myself until mid-to-late-ninth grade, i didn't have faith in the existence of god and in jesus as god. i still went to church and never consciously admitted it to myself...but for 7 years...i lied myself into thinking i was a christian.
it finally hit me, though, when i went with amy horning to church in ninth grade...and the sermon was all about that leap of faith...and the question that came to me was "well...every religion that i'm aware of says that you have to believe without evidence...that you have to be willing to take that leap. why should i choose christianity over islam or judaism if they're all going to give me just as little tangible proof?"
and so for a while i was just kind of a confused agnostic kid looking for something "greater than myself" to believe in...until it occurred to me that any religion i would have come across was going to say "it's true because it's in the book."
and that's when i stopped believing in organized religion. which really isn't to say that i don't believe in the existence of something relatively close to what the religious call god.
i won't be able to explain this adequately (even at my most eloquent moments...which i'm nowhere near, right now...i've never been able to put this thought into adequate language), and i sort of hesitate to try to explain it at all...because a limited explanation is just going to sound ridiculous...anyway...as long as you're aware that the following will probably sound pretty dumb to you...and that...maybe one day i'll word it a bit less ridiculously, i'll try to explain:
i wish i understood more of the big bang theory, but i probably know a bit more about it than the average person. anyway...from what i understand, everything was in some super-duper-dense tiny little ball at some point...and there had to be some sort of a catalyst to the chain reaction that created the universe. there just had to be some innate will to live. i've called this will the universal consciousness. the only two comparisons i can make, both of which are kind of dumb, are to the "force" within star wars, and to lao tzu's tao. i'd come up with a few more hypothetical instances of this universal consciousness surfacing...but if i try to explain them, you'll all just think i'm dumb as hell.
and i'm not going to say anything in-depth in regard to the robot thing...just cause this is going to take people fucking forever to read as it is, but i see what you're saying. obviously the argument has minor flaws, but it's only the gist of it that you need to get to know. that there are boundaries to things...whether we're bound by time, or space or whatever and yada yada yada. i've got to quit just to spare everyone else...and cause i'v ehad to piss since i started this.
what makes you so convinced that this logical set of laws and forces and these chemicals that govern our bodies and everything around us aren't just the tools that this being chose to use to make this universe work?
consider this: years and years down the line, humans are extinct. they're survived by their mechanical creations - machines, robots, whatever. if some other species were to stumble upon our planet, they would find no traces of humans, just the robots. they would most likely assume the robots were just what evolved on this particular planet. they would come up with a set of laws based on the machines we created that they thought governed things on this planet. laws that just existed. but in truth, the machines, the laws, everything, would have been created by us, long before this other species came to know them. the parts of the machines and the laws that govern them were just the tools we devised to make them work.
i know it's a bit of a stretch, but it's something to think about.
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i know what you're saying. you're right...there's no reason the laws couldn't have been put into place by god to keep things running smoothly. i think i stated (or intended to state, at least) above that i wasn't planning on elaborating on my argument for atheism, but since you don't seem to be taking my lack of faith personally, and since you're not attacking me, i'll run with it for a little bit.
it's not that i imagine that god CAN'T exist because all of the universe's laws make such perfect mathematical sense...i'm certain that if god is omniscient (which i sincerely doubt would be the case) like my sunday school teachers told me, he'd have no problem creating a fully self-sustainable universe...it's just that i've seen these laws in action...i've seen proof that these laws are true...and, up until this point, i have seen no quantifiable proof of a god...and i simply just can't take that "leap of faith" onto something without some scientifically provable fact at the bottom of its logic.
and believe me...it's not stubborness that's saying these things. i really WANT to believe in a god. at about seven, i would say, i probably stopped blindly following what my parents told me about religion...and, though i didn't admit this to myself until mid-to-late-ninth grade, i didn't have faith in the existence of god and in jesus as god. i still went to church and never consciously admitted it to myself...but for 7 years...i lied myself into thinking i was a christian.
it finally hit me, though, when i went with amy horning to church in ninth grade...and the sermon was all about that leap of faith...and the question that came to me was "well...every religion that i'm aware of says that you have to believe without evidence...that you have to be willing to take that leap. why should i choose christianity over islam or judaism if they're all going to give me just as little tangible proof?"
and so for a while i was just kind of a confused agnostic kid looking for something "greater than myself" to believe in...until it occurred to me that any religion i would have come across was going to say "it's true because it's in the book."
and that's when i stopped believing in organized religion. which really isn't to say that i don't believe in the existence of something relatively close to what the religious call god.
i won't be able to explain this adequately (even at my most eloquent moments...which i'm nowhere near, right now...i've never been able to put this thought into adequate language), and i sort of hesitate to try to explain it at all...because a limited explanation is just going to sound ridiculous...anyway...as long as you're aware that the following will probably sound pretty dumb to you...and that...maybe one day i'll word it a bit less ridiculously, i'll try to explain:
i wish i understood more of the big bang theory, but i probably know a bit more about it than the average person. anyway...from what i understand, everything was in some super-duper-dense tiny little ball at some point...and there had to be some sort of a catalyst to the chain reaction that created the universe. there just had to be some innate will to live. i've called this will the universal consciousness. the only two comparisons i can make, both of which are kind of dumb, are to the "force" within star wars, and to lao tzu's tao. i'd come up with a few more hypothetical instances of this universal consciousness surfacing...but if i try to explain them, you'll all just think i'm dumb as hell.
and i'm not going to say anything in-depth in regard to the robot thing...just cause this is going to take people fucking forever to read as it is, but i see what you're saying. obviously the argument has minor flaws, but it's only the gist of it that you need to get to know. that there are boundaries to things...whether we're bound by time, or space or whatever and yada yada yada. i've got to quit just to spare everyone else...and cause i'v ehad to piss since i started this.
Reply
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