some notes about Jason's martial arts techniques OR I am a big dork
Before I start really talking about this I want to make it clear that I know next to nothing about martial arts, and I don't think I differ from your average RPer in that respect. I took one semester of self-defense and I've seen movies where people have choreographed fights. I had a bunch of friends who did take various styles of martial arts. That is the extent of my experience.
Luckily, we're in the world of fiction here, so I'M GONNA TALK ABOUT SHIT ANYWAY LOL sorry to any martial artists out there who might be like BUT THAT'S WRONG... look, in as far as screwing martial arts stuff up goes, you can blame Hollywood. I'm just a role-player. I'll do a certain amount of research but nothing I write about my superhero comics brawling characters has even the faintest intention of trying to live up to reality my concern as a writer is just that whatever fight scene I write doesn't poke reality in the eye, and is somewhat interesting to read.
With RPing, writing a fight scene becomes even trickier because now there is an oppositional element of player versus player. In tabletop games and MUs, there are often stats in place to keep shit fair. In LJ RPing, the emphasis is on cooperative fiction, and when fights take place between characters who are more or less evenly matched, it becomes mildly problematic. Most players, I think, simply decide who will win and play with that expectation in mind.
Jason is an interesting character for this kind of thing because he's in the position of a badass (... "badass"...) normal, someone with no special powers (FUCK YOU, TENTACLES) but a lot of training. Even with training, however, I do think he's been overrated by the people who write him... but that's kind of a common problem with superhero comics and the many, many writers behind each character. It's not especially meaningful to compare him to any character that has powers of any kind, so he mostly gets compared to other members of the Batfamily. In canon, they show him being able to keep up with Batman and Nightwing, and he's nearly killed Tim a few times. Is that realistic? ... well, in my opinion, n...o? At sixteen, when he was killed, I don't think he was particularly skilled as Robin. With a whole lot of motivation, he then underwent some training with an assassin and a "close combat expert." These are the only two martial arts related training courses he underwent that were mentioned specifically; it is totally possible he did more that wasn't talked about during Lost Days but I try not to go crazy with the speculative headcanon there.
Based on his canon appearances, I think it is fair to say that Jason is a good fighter, but clearly not among the top five, or even top ten martial artists in the DC. I'm not even sure about the top twenty. In one of the issues where he fights Tim, before Battle for the Cowl, Tim says that he's better trained than Jason, and I agree with this assessment. Tim has had much more formal training, including a stint with Shiva, for chrissake, but Jason has in the past managed to overpower him. It sucks, but that's basically Robin's role in life anyway.
Jason's appearances with Dick, however, do suggest that while Dick is better, Jason is perhaps closer to Dick's level of skill than Tim's, perhaps because of his physical advantages (read: the fact that for some reason he is constantly depicted as HUGE, like, as big as Batman). That said, I do think there is a strong psychological element for both Dick and Bruce when they fight Jason which prevents them from going all out on Jason right away (Jason has to be like, super insufferable and flat out trying to kill them before they take him down). I feel like Tim doesn't have this obstacle. Furthermore, Tim has sort of "leveled up" in the course of Red Robin when he fought all those assassins, and I think any fight between them that might happen now is much more even. Tim has also grown a few inches and put on some more muscle, so Jason's physical advantages wouldn't be as marked anymore.
Stylistically, it is probable that all the boys carry a certain Bat-stamp to their fighting techniques, but it's well established that Dick has branched out to escrima. Before Lost Days came out, I used to take Jason's kris as a sign that he had spent time training in Indonesia or at least from Indonesian masters, and went with silat as a probable influence. Of course, it turns out that the kris is just some randomass present from Talia, but it's never actually made clear what the "close combat expert" taught Jason, so silat remains my headcanon influence on Jason's style. During Under the Hood, I think it is arguable that Bruce had begun to suspect Jason's identity probably like. RIGHT AWAY, but could not bring himself to reconcile this suspicion with what the evidence told him. He'd been faked out already during the Hush storyline (WHICH WAS A DOUBLE FAKE OUT, DC YOU DAZZLE ME) and he was actively investigating the coffin at the time, but Jason pretty much made it NOT A MYSTERY AT ALL as to who he was, what with sending Bruce the two books and a chunk of Joker's hair (gross, Jason). Still, his style of fighting probably differed enough from what he used to do as Robin so as to fuck with Bruce's head. Silat would be a fairly good bet for a style of martial arts Bruce did not teach Jason. As far as I can remember, Bruce's teachers were fairly varied but more Japanese influenced. As far as Asian martial arts go, especially during the periods when Batman comics were being made, I'm pretty sure China and Japan were the overwhelmingly popular choices for that kind of thing.
Also my parents are from Malaysia, where forms of silat are popular, so FUCK YOU I'M GOING WITH MY SORT OF HERITAGE... IT'S COOL OKAY... :C WELL THEY'RE CANTONESE AND NOT MALAY BUT THAT'S WHERE THEY GREW UP, THE END.
Does silat even vaguely resemble any of the fighting techniques Jason is shown using? ... are we sure the various artists who have depicted Jason were really drawing actual techniques, versus making shit up or using references from google image search? I think it'd be pretty difficult to say. For my nerdy RP purposes, silat works just fine and gives me something to research for those inevitable fight scenes that don't get handwaved.
In any case, somewhere along the line, Jason apparently learned how to fight with a knife. Either that, or he was pulling that out of his ass during his fights with Batman. If the latter, uh, good job! Most people don't last very long in fights with Batman using the "out of my ass" technique.
I am also sure that Jason does not use just one style of martial art, so. There are a bajillion variants of silat, seeing as Malaysia has been trampled and invaded by plenty of different cultures and it's all had time to coalesce. At one point I decided on kuntao-silat, which has some Chinese influences, but honestly there's no point in being so specific when I am basically talking out my ass about martial arts. To most people it will mean nothing and to the people who do know what I'm talking about, they will probably find something wrong with what I'm saying. I try instead to focus on general concepts like versatility and straight up maiming blows, because I think that's what Jason's going for. This is a guy who beheaded some drug dealers to make a point. I've noticed he's never (to my memory) been shown killing anyone with his bare hands he always uses a knife or a gun. I'm sure he CAN, and they discuss doing so in an issue of Lost Days, but the guy tends to either use weapons or bombs. He's not in this for personal badassery, like Shiva, he's just out to effectively kill people. I think Shiva would be pretty scornful of his style, for that matter. He basically does anything that works, up to and including going in guns blazing.
Here are some dudes demonstrating some kali escrima vs. silat techniques. I... am not really sure who represents who but I am guessing that the guy in the red uniform is using silat?? NOTICE HOW IT'S NOT AS EXCITING AS COMIC BOOK FIGHTS BECAUSE COMIC BOOKS ARE NOT REAL LIFE.
Luckily, we're in the world of fiction here, so I'M GONNA TALK ABOUT SHIT ANYWAY LOL sorry to any martial artists out there who might be like BUT THAT'S WRONG... look, in as far as screwing martial arts stuff up goes, you can blame Hollywood. I'm just a role-player. I'll do a certain amount of research but nothing I write about my superhero comics brawling characters has even the faintest intention of trying to live up to reality my concern as a writer is just that whatever fight scene I write doesn't poke reality in the eye, and is somewhat interesting to read.
With RPing, writing a fight scene becomes even trickier because now there is an oppositional element of player versus player. In tabletop games and MUs, there are often stats in place to keep shit fair. In LJ RPing, the emphasis is on cooperative fiction, and when fights take place between characters who are more or less evenly matched, it becomes mildly problematic. Most players, I think, simply decide who will win and play with that expectation in mind.
Jason is an interesting character for this kind of thing because he's in the position of a badass (... "badass"...) normal, someone with no special powers (FUCK YOU, TENTACLES) but a lot of training. Even with training, however, I do think he's been overrated by the people who write him... but that's kind of a common problem with superhero comics and the many, many writers behind each character. It's not especially meaningful to compare him to any character that has powers of any kind, so he mostly gets compared to other members of the Batfamily. In canon, they show him being able to keep up with Batman and Nightwing, and he's nearly killed Tim a few times. Is that realistic? ... well, in my opinion, n...o? At sixteen, when he was killed, I don't think he was particularly skilled as Robin. With a whole lot of motivation, he then underwent some training with an assassin and a "close combat expert." These are the only two martial arts related training courses he underwent that were mentioned specifically; it is totally possible he did more that wasn't talked about during Lost Days but I try not to go crazy with the speculative headcanon there.
Based on his canon appearances, I think it is fair to say that Jason is a good fighter, but clearly not among the top five, or even top ten martial artists in the DC. I'm not even sure about the top twenty. In one of the issues where he fights Tim, before Battle for the Cowl, Tim says that he's better trained than Jason, and I agree with this assessment. Tim has had much more formal training, including a stint with Shiva, for chrissake, but Jason has in the past managed to overpower him. It sucks, but that's basically Robin's role in life anyway.
Jason's appearances with Dick, however, do suggest that while Dick is better, Jason is perhaps closer to Dick's level of skill than Tim's, perhaps because of his physical advantages (read: the fact that for some reason he is constantly depicted as HUGE, like, as big as Batman). That said, I do think there is a strong psychological element for both Dick and Bruce when they fight Jason which prevents them from going all out on Jason right away (Jason has to be like, super insufferable and flat out trying to kill them before they take him down). I feel like Tim doesn't have this obstacle. Furthermore, Tim has sort of "leveled up" in the course of Red Robin when he fought all those assassins, and I think any fight between them that might happen now is much more even. Tim has also grown a few inches and put on some more muscle, so Jason's physical advantages wouldn't be as marked anymore.
Stylistically, it is probable that all the boys carry a certain Bat-stamp to their fighting techniques, but it's well established that Dick has branched out to escrima. Before Lost Days came out, I used to take Jason's kris as a sign that he had spent time training in Indonesia or at least from Indonesian masters, and went with silat as a probable influence. Of course, it turns out that the kris is just some randomass present from Talia, but it's never actually made clear what the "close combat expert" taught Jason, so silat remains my headcanon influence on Jason's style. During Under the Hood, I think it is arguable that Bruce had begun to suspect Jason's identity probably like. RIGHT AWAY, but could not bring himself to reconcile this suspicion with what the evidence told him. He'd been faked out already during the Hush storyline (WHICH WAS A DOUBLE FAKE OUT, DC YOU DAZZLE ME) and he was actively investigating the coffin at the time, but Jason pretty much made it NOT A MYSTERY AT ALL as to who he was, what with sending Bruce the two books and a chunk of Joker's hair (gross, Jason). Still, his style of fighting probably differed enough from what he used to do as Robin so as to fuck with Bruce's head. Silat would be a fairly good bet for a style of martial arts Bruce did not teach Jason. As far as I can remember, Bruce's teachers were fairly varied but more Japanese influenced. As far as Asian martial arts go, especially during the periods when Batman comics were being made, I'm pretty sure China and Japan were the overwhelmingly popular choices for that kind of thing.
Also my parents are from Malaysia, where forms of silat are popular, so FUCK YOU I'M GOING WITH MY SORT OF HERITAGE... IT'S COOL OKAY... :C WELL THEY'RE CANTONESE AND NOT MALAY BUT THAT'S WHERE THEY GREW UP, THE END.
Does silat even vaguely resemble any of the fighting techniques Jason is shown using? ... are we sure the various artists who have depicted Jason were really drawing actual techniques, versus making shit up or using references from google image search? I think it'd be pretty difficult to say. For my nerdy RP purposes, silat works just fine and gives me something to research for those inevitable fight scenes that don't get handwaved.
In any case, somewhere along the line, Jason apparently learned how to fight with a knife. Either that, or he was pulling that out of his ass during his fights with Batman. If the latter, uh, good job! Most people don't last very long in fights with Batman using the "out of my ass" technique.
I am also sure that Jason does not use just one style of martial art, so. There are a bajillion variants of silat, seeing as Malaysia has been trampled and invaded by plenty of different cultures and it's all had time to coalesce. At one point I decided on kuntao-silat, which has some Chinese influences, but honestly there's no point in being so specific when I am basically talking out my ass about martial arts. To most people it will mean nothing and to the people who do know what I'm talking about, they will probably find something wrong with what I'm saying. I try instead to focus on general concepts like versatility and straight up maiming blows, because I think that's what Jason's going for. This is a guy who beheaded some drug dealers to make a point. I've noticed he's never (to my memory) been shown killing anyone with his bare hands he always uses a knife or a gun. I'm sure he CAN, and they discuss doing so in an issue of Lost Days, but the guy tends to either use weapons or bombs. He's not in this for personal badassery, like Shiva, he's just out to effectively kill people. I think Shiva would be pretty scornful of his style, for that matter. He basically does anything that works, up to and including going in guns blazing.
Here are some dudes demonstrating some kali escrima vs. silat techniques. I... am not really sure who represents who but I am guessing that the guy in the red uniform is using silat?? NOTICE HOW IT'S NOT AS EXCITING AS COMIC BOOK FIGHTS BECAUSE COMIC BOOKS ARE NOT REAL LIFE.
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