My problem with most Mary Sues is one of characterization. I do not like wholly perfect characters. I do not like wholly *imperfect* characters either, but wholly perfect characters drive me completely nuts. I cannot relate to such stories because no one is that perfect in real life; I cannot empathize with one-dimensional characters.
This is not to say that my own characterization is perfect, of course :) But I would list characterization as the number one thing that draws me into and makes me love a story. My opinion, of course!
My understanding of a "Mary Sue" is a character who is one-dimensional in the sense that she is absolutely and impeccably perfect. Perhaps I am incorrect in this perception; I am new to the Tolkien writing community, after all, and there are not a lot of Mary Sues in Silmarillion fiction. I have no problem with girls falling into Middle-earth or falling in love with Legolas--I only ask that they be *real* characters and not someone opening a Perfect Princess in a Can and plopping her into their story
( ... )
What's an unhinged reply or two between friends? :D
Seriously, I don't mind. I will discuss anything, with anyone. Well...almost.... (I'd better qualify before I get pervs worse than Arandil in my journal!)
And you can use whatever tone you want with me. I told you I'd wear my chainmail, didn't I? :D
I've probably told you about the time I submitted a story for workshop in college. It was set in the future. I got reemed out in workshop for writing a "sci-fi" complete with genre conventions and formulae, which I must have known through some odd intuition, seeing as I had never even *read* a sci-fi story before, much less studied the formulae and conventions.
Silly me for trying to create a story with *characters* and *conflicts* that took place outside the sphere of college ;D
I got not a single helpful comment from that workshop because the class drifted off to talking about the FotR movie and the "fanstasy genre" conventions in *that
( ... )
Most "Mary Sues" are not written with the intention to write a good story. They are only written as an indulgence, as a sweet dream, and mostly by young authors.
I have no problem with this! I went through such phases myself when I was younger, when every story I wrote had the rebellious young man and the suppressed (usually by uber-conservative/religious guardians of some sort) female who eventually fell in love. Characters in a Can? I had a whole pantry full! :) I agree that all writers need to start somewhere and that no one should be discouraged to write.
I, however, do not want one-dimensional characters in my stories. I do not think it out of line to hope to grow as a writer and to ask those who are willing to provide me with critical comments to be frank and honest in my effectiveness in doing this.
I beta-read for a few younger writers. I find them exceptionally talented for their age. I would never--and have never--called another person's story a "Mary Sue" unless they wrote it as such and obviously do not mind the label.
( ... )
If it was, then it would be under my alias Dawn Felagund. It's the only one I use; I have managed to get *everything* on the Internet under that one name.
And we have indeed established that clichés will be hunted down by you and roasted as smores.
Hehe. I giggled at this, so you know :)
When a comparison that is intended to be highly original and un-clichéd goes wrong, it jerks the reader out of the story completely.
I think the secret of a good style is the right balance of neutral expressions or even "clichés"
Ah, yes. The happy medium :)
btw did you know that we have the same expression in German? "Schmetterlinge im Bauch haben"
That's pretty cool. And German looks so neat written...although I have *no* idea how to say that! :D
Only if the style is round and balanced, it is a pleasure to read. Which is probably why I enjoy your story so much. And that is nothing but the truth. :-)Oh...::blushes:: Thank you! :D
( ... )
Hi, this is a really interesting discussion, so I hope you don't mind if I add my tuppence?
I guess I'm something of a 'canatic' (I assume it means canon-fanatic?) but I quite agree that making someone who is writing a Legomance, or any other kind of story, feel bad about their work just because their heroine is a self-insert is horrible and mean.
Just to play 'devil's advocate' for a moment (no offence intended), if a writer doesn't want to use the details from LoTR (Tolkien's version or Peter Jackson's) in their LoTR fic, then they'd probably be better off writing something original. Of course, there's AU, but that's a whole different kettle of fish!
if someone has fun using some details of movies or books
Then I'd call it an AU and read it as such - and I'll probably enjoy it if it's well-written and/or a good tale.
Who in h*** are we to make rules about what may or may not be done in fandom and try to impose them on others
Ouch! Erm, I don't think I have.
some people have become so canon-obsessed that they cannot accept any deviation from what *they* deem canon anymore
It can jar slightly for me - for instance, I read one story that had the second age as 1000 years long. It made me stop and think for a moment, but it was a great story and that one thing didn't stop me from telling the author that I enjoyed her work.
And it is not that easy to determine what exactly canon is in the Tolkien-verse
It's simple enough for me: LoTR and 'The Hobbit' are canon, and that's all. For my personal canon I tend to go with what we're told is JRR's last view on a topic by Christopher in HoME, not necessarily what's in 'The Silmarilion'. I wouldn't try to impose that view on anyone
( ... )
a jumble of lower case and upper case letters at the beginnings of those words
Guilty as charged. Luckily my beta usually spots it!
A completely ridiculous plot and one-dimensional characterizations, grammar & spelling that really *makes* me scream (forget about "want to")...
LOL - but those are the stories that tend to get the most reviews!
I've always thought of LaCE as being an ideal - like the Roman Catholic thing of no divorce etc., because enough of Tolkien's elves met with 'ill chance or strange fate'.
the prologue and the appendices lead to the problem of Tolkien's strange pseudo-historical approach of writing LOTR
And he even changed some of those details later; Celebrimbor's origins, for one.
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This is not to say that my own characterization is perfect, of course :) But I would list characterization as the number one thing that draws me into and makes me love a story. My opinion, of course!
My understanding of a "Mary Sue" is a character who is one-dimensional in the sense that she is absolutely and impeccably perfect. Perhaps I am incorrect in this perception; I am new to the Tolkien writing community, after all, and there are not a lot of Mary Sues in Silmarillion fiction. I have no problem with girls falling into Middle-earth or falling in love with Legolas--I only ask that they be *real* characters and not someone opening a Perfect Princess in a Can and plopping her into their story ( ... )
Reply
(The comment has been removed)
(The comment has been removed)
Seriously, I don't mind. I will discuss anything, with anyone. Well...almost.... (I'd better qualify before I get pervs worse than Arandil in my journal!)
And you can use whatever tone you want with me. I told you I'd wear my chainmail, didn't I? :D
Recover? From writing or posting?
::offers hug::
Reply
(The comment has been removed)
I've probably told you about the time I submitted a story for workshop in college. It was set in the future. I got reemed out in workshop for writing a "sci-fi" complete with genre conventions and formulae, which I must have known through some odd intuition, seeing as I had never even *read* a sci-fi story before, much less studied the formulae and conventions.
Silly me for trying to create a story with *characters* and *conflicts* that took place outside the sphere of college ;D
I got not a single helpful comment from that workshop because the class drifted off to talking about the FotR movie and the "fanstasy genre" conventions in *that ( ... )
Reply
I have no problem with this! I went through such phases myself when I was younger, when every story I wrote had the rebellious young man and the suppressed (usually by uber-conservative/religious guardians of some sort) female who eventually fell in love. Characters in a Can? I had a whole pantry full! :) I agree that all writers need to start somewhere and that no one should be discouraged to write.
I, however, do not want one-dimensional characters in my stories. I do not think it out of line to hope to grow as a writer and to ask those who are willing to provide me with critical comments to be frank and honest in my effectiveness in doing this.
I beta-read for a few younger writers. I find them exceptionally talented for their age. I would never--and have never--called another person's story a "Mary Sue" unless they wrote it as such and obviously do not mind the label. ( ... )
Reply
(The comment has been removed)
If it was, then it would be under my alias Dawn Felagund. It's the only one I use; I have managed to get *everything* on the Internet under that one name.
And we have indeed established that clichés will be hunted down by you and roasted as smores.
Hehe. I giggled at this, so you know :)
When a comparison that is intended to be highly original and un-clichéd goes wrong, it jerks the reader out of the story completely.
I think the secret of a good style is the right balance of neutral expressions or even "clichés"
Ah, yes. The happy medium :)
btw did you know that we have the same expression in German? "Schmetterlinge im Bauch haben"
That's pretty cool. And German looks so neat written...although I have *no* idea how to say that! :D
Only if the style is round and balanced, it is a pleasure to read. Which is probably why I enjoy your story so much. And that is nothing but the truth. :-)Oh...::blushes:: Thank you! :D ( ... )
Reply
I guess I'm something of a 'canatic' (I assume it means canon-fanatic?) but I quite agree that making someone who is writing a Legomance, or any other kind of story, feel bad about their work just because their heroine is a self-insert is horrible and mean.
Just to play 'devil's advocate' for a moment (no offence intended), if a writer doesn't want to use the details from LoTR (Tolkien's version or Peter Jackson's) in their LoTR fic, then they'd probably be better off writing something original. Of course, there's AU, but that's a whole different kettle of fish!
Reply
(The comment has been removed)
Then I'd call it an AU and read it as such - and I'll probably enjoy it if it's well-written and/or a good tale.
Who in h*** are we to make rules about what may or may not be done in fandom and try to impose them on others
Ouch! Erm, I don't think I have.
some people have become so canon-obsessed that they cannot accept any deviation from what *they* deem canon anymore
It can jar slightly for me - for instance, I read one story that had the second age as 1000 years long. It made me stop and think for a moment, but it was a great story and that one thing didn't stop me from telling the author that I enjoyed her work.
And it is not that easy to determine what exactly canon is in the Tolkien-verse
It's simple enough for me: LoTR and 'The Hobbit' are canon, and that's all. For my personal canon I tend to go with what we're told is JRR's last view on a topic by Christopher in HoME, not necessarily what's in 'The Silmarilion'. I wouldn't try to impose that view on anyone ( ... )
Reply
(The comment has been removed)
Reply
Guilty as charged. Luckily my beta usually spots it!
A completely ridiculous plot and one-dimensional characterizations, grammar & spelling that really *makes* me scream (forget about "want to")...
LOL - but those are the stories that tend to get the most reviews!
I've always thought of LaCE as being an ideal - like the Roman Catholic thing of no divorce etc., because enough of Tolkien's elves met with 'ill chance or strange fate'.
the prologue and the appendices lead to the problem of Tolkien's strange pseudo-historical approach of writing LOTR
And he even changed some of those details later; Celebrimbor's origins, for one.
Reply
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