Awww, thank you! *Dawn gives hugs and Alex gives kisses* :)
Though I doubt your life is boring...the life of a student never truly is! I just have a knack for kicking up my own boring life with spicy words! :^D
As for Milgram's work, you are not alone in feeling initial disbelief. Something like only 1% of psychologists, when asked prior to the experiment, felt that anyone would go all the way to 450 volts. It's a scary phenomenon, truly. And history is so full further proof of it: the Holocaust and Mai Lai being two fairly recent, horrible examples of that. And I wonder: When will atrocities like Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay join the list??
But it is encouraging, as you said, that people who know Milgram's work will question things like the fast-food hoax when they happen in their own lives. (And many people did resist the hoax, so that is encouraging as well, I think. :)
*shudders* Oy. Those hoaxes are positively horrific. I wish they had all heard about Milgram.
I didn't vote in the poll, because I knew exactly what you were referencing from the title itself. My social psych professor just referenced Milgram in class last week, and guess what? They replicated his experiment recently, and...
The results are the same: 2/3 of the people will obey authority to the last. :-/ That's why more people need to know about this.
*grumbles* Why are my floormates shrieking like deranged monkeys...? Is it too much to ask for relative quiet? Apparently so...
And you're taking social psych? Wait, I knew that! *doh* I really enjoyed that class. Dr. Blass was always asking, "Dawn, have you ever given any thought to going to grad school to study social psychology??" Poor guy...he finally found some poor sap willing to transcribe all those tapes, and she was only interested in clinical/biopsych stuff. ;)
Was the study exactly the same as the Milgram experiment? I'm surprised that it passed the review board...though the Milgram study is largely decried for poor debriefings. IIrc, Milgram is the reason that we have review boards in the first place. ;)
I think that it's part of human nature to obey, vague and unscientific as that sounds. ;) But if these are the results in a country that values independent thought, imagine what they would be in places that place higher value on obedience! Or when the "teacher" is under duress, in fear for his life or that of his family. It kind of puts things into a different perspective, methinks. :^/
I voted "depends" on the first and "never" on the second, though I'm not sure just how it would work out in real life. Nothing ever works out like I think in real life, so I can't say.
You mentioned culture. It may be that my culture, which emphasizes obedience, makes us more susceptible to being blind. Then again, it might make us less susceptible-- after obeying some rather unreasonable rules (once, when I was transferred to the, ah, "superior" class, I was not allowed to have silent study with my own classmates. I went back after that), one might actually be more sceptical of random orders from people in authority. There's no way to really know, unless something really comes up.
I'm darkly fascinated by the Milgram experiment. I should probably do some reading on it... I sort of admire the man for revealing the darker side of obedience.
Interesting thoughts on culture...I hadn't ever thought of it that way. And it's a good point: We Westerners are generally asked to obey in only benign situations. For example, there is a power outage and a police officer asks us to cross the red light and keep traffic moving. Or a teacher asks us to take our seats and be quiet. These are really reasonable things, and so authority, perhaps, to us, becomes associated with benign, reasonable requests.
Milgram, of course, turned that idea on its head. And the men who committed the Mai Lai massacre, for example, had been raised with the ideal that authority only requests of us things that are benign and "for our own good," so perhaps this is why they did not question the authority that asked them to murder innocents.
Bleh, I meant my answer as more of a "It depends on the situation, but I end up almost always obeying because I'm so passive and people of authority usually don't (directly) ask me things against my morals anyway" than a plain "I will always obey" that might imply I don't question what I'm doing. Oops
( ... )
That's okay! I've got 30 responses, which is a bigger sample than I expected! So one boo-boo does not matter much. :)
That's really interesting about the lab-coat phenomenon! Though not surprising, as appearances have so much to do with perception. (I'm also wondering, however, what kind of lab coat she was putting on to take five minutes to do so! :^D)
Even in writing, lots of typos can make even the most intelligent person sound stupid...or the opposite, a high-school senior who never even read the play on her AP English exam writes a shiny-but-bullshit essay on it and gets a perfect score anyway.... *innocent whistling* It's amazing how much we assume, based on nothing but appearance alone.
If the Milgram experiment is true with no coercion and without threat, imagine what people must be capable of when the safety of themselves and their families is put on the line! o.O That's the most sobering thought of all, for me, because I know that obedience to military authority or dictators is rarely (ever?) without threat or coercion.
Huh. Well, this inspired a blog entry at the Chimp Refuge (scienceblogs.com/bushwells). I didn't link your piece directly since I didn't think you'd necessarily want all the scientific riff-raff over there descending on your quiet little corner of the Bag of Weasels blogoverse, but if you do, please let me know, and it's just a matter of an . :^)
You are welcome to link me whenever you'd like! :) I don't expect it, of course, but if it would be helpful, then go right ahead!
(And I do appreciate you asking. People rarely do, so it's refreshing, like actually getting a "Thank you" for holding the door for someone!)
As far as riffraff goes...well, I post at fanfiction.net. Short of slashing my wrists, sticking my head into a pot of boiling water, or joining the Harry Potter fandom, I don't think there's any greater form of self-injurious behavior!
Well, I always say "thank you" when someone opens a door for me, but I don't always ask permission to link, but with nice folks with whom I correspond, I do. :^)
It's interesting to see who links into one's blog. Via a Technorati search, I stumbled across a neat blog kept by a woman who is a writer and an avid sci-fi fan, and this was because she linked into something I wrote. One of the hapless guys on Science Blogs made a very unfortunate comment regarding the paucity of "hot women" who read science fiction. You can imagine that his a$$ was well and thoroughly handed to him. Anyway, Lisa summarised this responses from us indignant scifi-fantasy fans in "Hottus Chicas Scientificas Unite."
Well, I always say "thank you" when someone opens a door for me, but I don't always ask permission to link, but with nice folks with whom I correspond, I do. :^)
Yes, linking is somewhat of a delicate issue. Personally, I don't mind friends linking me simply because 95% of my stuff is public anyway, so someone with enough determination could find me if they wanted to. It's simply refreshing to be asked! :)
Anyway, Lisa summarised this responses from us indignant scifi-fantasy fans in "Hottus Chicas Scientificas Unite."That was interesting...I shall have to go back and read some of the articles that she linked
( ... )
Comments 16
(The comment has been removed)
Though I doubt your life is boring...the life of a student never truly is! I just have a knack for kicking up my own boring life with spicy words! :^D
As for Milgram's work, you are not alone in feeling initial disbelief. Something like only 1% of psychologists, when asked prior to the experiment, felt that anyone would go all the way to 450 volts. It's a scary phenomenon, truly. And history is so full further proof of it: the Holocaust and Mai Lai being two fairly recent, horrible examples of that. And I wonder: When will atrocities like Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay join the list??
But it is encouraging, as you said, that people who know Milgram's work will question things like the fast-food hoax when they happen in their own lives. (And many people did resist the hoax, so that is encouraging as well, I think. :)
Reply
I didn't vote in the poll, because I knew exactly what you were referencing from the title itself. My social psych professor just referenced Milgram in class last week, and guess what? They replicated his experiment recently, and...
The results are the same: 2/3 of the people will obey authority to the last. :-/ That's why more people need to know about this.
*grumbles* Why are my floormates shrieking like deranged monkeys...? Is it too much to ask for relative quiet? Apparently so...
Reply
And you're taking social psych? Wait, I knew that! *doh* I really enjoyed that class. Dr. Blass was always asking, "Dawn, have you ever given any thought to going to grad school to study social psychology??" Poor guy...he finally found some poor sap willing to transcribe all those tapes, and she was only interested in clinical/biopsych stuff. ;)
Was the study exactly the same as the Milgram experiment? I'm surprised that it passed the review board...though the Milgram study is largely decried for poor debriefings. IIrc, Milgram is the reason that we have review boards in the first place. ;)
I think that it's part of human nature to obey, vague and unscientific as that sounds. ;) But if these are the results in a country that values independent thought, imagine what they would be in places that place higher value on obedience! Or when the "teacher" is under duress, in fear for his life or that of his family. It kind of puts things into a different perspective, methinks. :^/
Reply
I voted "depends" on the first and "never" on the second, though I'm not sure just how it would work out in real life. Nothing ever works out like I think in real life, so I can't say.
You mentioned culture. It may be that my culture, which emphasizes obedience, makes us more susceptible to being blind. Then again, it might make us less susceptible-- after obeying some rather unreasonable rules (once, when I was transferred to the, ah, "superior" class, I was not allowed to have silent study with my own classmates. I went back after that), one might actually be more sceptical of random orders from people in authority. There's no way to really know, unless something really comes up.
I'm darkly fascinated by the Milgram experiment. I should probably do some reading on it... I sort of admire the man for revealing the darker side of obedience.
Reply
Milgram, of course, turned that idea on its head. And the men who committed the Mai Lai massacre, for example, had been raised with the ideal that authority only requests of us things that are benign and "for our own good," so perhaps this is why they did not question the authority that asked them to murder innocents.
Reply
Reply
That's really interesting about the lab-coat phenomenon! Though not surprising, as appearances have so much to do with perception. (I'm also wondering, however, what kind of lab coat she was putting on to take five minutes to do so! :^D)
Even in writing, lots of typos can make even the most intelligent person sound stupid...or the opposite, a high-school senior who never even read the play on her AP English exam writes a shiny-but-bullshit essay on it and gets a perfect score anyway.... *innocent whistling* It's amazing how much we assume, based on nothing but appearance alone.
Reply
(The comment has been removed)
If the Milgram experiment is true with no coercion and without threat, imagine what people must be capable of when the safety of themselves and their families is put on the line! o.O That's the most sobering thought of all, for me, because I know that obedience to military authority or dictators is rarely (ever?) without threat or coercion.
And you're welcome! :)
Reply
Reply
(And I do appreciate you asking. People rarely do, so it's refreshing, like actually getting a "Thank you" for holding the door for someone!)
As far as riffraff goes...well, I post at fanfiction.net. Short of slashing my wrists, sticking my head into a pot of boiling water, or joining the Harry Potter fandom, I don't think there's any greater form of self-injurious behavior!
Reply
Well, I always say "thank you" when someone opens a door for me, but I don't always ask permission to link, but with nice folks with whom I correspond, I do. :^)
It's interesting to see who links into one's blog. Via a Technorati search, I stumbled across a neat blog kept by a woman who is a writer and an avid sci-fi fan, and this was because she linked into something I wrote. One of the hapless guys on Science Blogs made a very unfortunate comment regarding the paucity of "hot women" who read science fiction. You can imagine that his a$$ was well and thoroughly handed to him. Anyway, Lisa summarised this responses from us indignant scifi-fantasy fans in "Hottus Chicas Scientificas Unite."
http://lisapaitzspindler.com/blog/?p=56
Her blog looks pretty cool, IMO, and may be of interest to some of your readers.
So, I briefly ventured into the Pit of Voles (another new bit of terminology for me). Oh. My. That place is like a writhing ( ... )
Reply
Yes, linking is somewhat of a delicate issue. Personally, I don't mind friends linking me simply because 95% of my stuff is public anyway, so someone with enough determination could find me if they wanted to. It's simply refreshing to be asked! :)
Anyway, Lisa summarised this responses from us indignant scifi-fantasy fans in "Hottus Chicas Scientificas Unite."That was interesting...I shall have to go back and read some of the articles that she linked ( ... )
Reply
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