CONCRIT POST!

[dasschlechtende]

CONCRIT MESeriously, I am a history nut and a perfectionist and I will not hate you for correcting me to improve my game. Also, I am not of German heritage in any way (I think) and thus have been researching LIKE MAD so that I can get Prussia's history down and play him as he is as a nation and as a person. I will also be posting up some of the

Comments

[dasschlechtende]

Actually, no, you bring up a fair point with the headcanon versus canon thing. However, it has been confirmed in recent translations of canon profiles that the character of Prussia did originate the way that I'd thought. Yeah, it probably would've been better if I didn't just assume with that kind of thing or make it seem like I was assuming--actually, my castmates and I have discussed these kinds of things quite often, so...

And I have been researching Prussia's history quite a bit. Maybe I did go about the medieval information the wrong way but that is because I'm more informed of historical facts after the 16th century, really. I'll keep looking into it and will fact check with you if you don't mind?

As for the critique on countries and nationalities during the medieval, Hetalia gives canon such as with the Battle of Tannenberg with the Teutonic Order against the Lithuanians and the Poles. It's an over-simplification of the event and shows the conflict as nations warring rather than people fighting each other over religious issues. That's how Hetalia is though. It oversimplifies, which I understand can be offensive to some people but if that's how the canon is, I'm willing to follow suit? Don't get me wrong. I'm still VERY willing to learn the actual events (hell, I bought a history book on the Kingdom of Prussia just because I RP him) but for things like characterization, events in history are going to come out seeming simplified because that's... just how Hetalia is.

As for his characterization as a nation... each character in Hetalia does have a national identity (normally, they're personified with their nation's cliches--for example, Prussia being war-like and hooligan no one likes) but they do also have their own personality. They're also their own person. Yeah, who runs their country and the events that happen within their country also have a large impact on their own behavior and such but... they're people in Hetalia. People who happen to be countries. So. I don't know if I'm explaining this well at all, but yeah.

The way a castmate of mine explained it when we discussed this kind of thing is that while Hetalia shows history, it's sort of not an exact history because it is being told through the personifications of nations who do have their own personalities and thoughts and ideas and such--different and sometimes even opposing of their leaders though normally they follow suit. I posted those timelines to help me get a better idea of when things happened and how things fall into place in history but they're not the end-all, be-all with a canon like Hetalia.

I-I'm sorry if this is offending in any way, but I'll do better to tap down on the headcanon mess and such and work on getting to know history better, but as I said even though I would learn history better, it'd still have to be translated or changed into a version of events that can be part of a person's life directly (an example being that America's glasses are Texas. so how did he get them? probably fought with Mexico over them because they were just that kickass, drrdrrdrr--not that that's CANON (well the glasses being Texas is) but just an example of... how Hetalia works with history?).

I dunno if I'm coming across as unaccepting of your crit or not--because believe me, I am DEFINITELY going to keep in mind all that you said here and dig more into history, but... I dunno, it really seems like you're a person who knows history who might not have read Hetalia? Or might not like how it's portrayed in Hetalia. Either way... I'm sorry if that's not the case, and like I said, I'll work harder at it.

Thank you!

[anoathkept]

According to what you wrote in the previous post, plus that confirmation, I think you're still misunderstanding some of the key parts of the medieval stuff. The way I see Hetalia is this: it's a simplification that's not a simplification that is a simplification? As a history major, I often experienced my professors simplifying history in ways that were hilariously similar to how Hetalia is written. I don't think Hetalia discounts the events, but doesn't include the documents, the middle-men, and so forth, which is why it often seems offensive to an outsider. I actually see Hetalia as accurate in its own way as a result of this, but I think playing it as an oversimplification is probably what offends people. It might be better not to do that, which I think you're trying to do, but as someone familiar with Europe during the era in which Prussia was "developed," I think you need a different perspective on the matter.

As a bit of advice, I would look at the development of Europe-"Europe"-from the fall of the Roman Empire (this has an inaccurate date, but I would pinpoint around the late fifth century and early sixth century). Note the progression of the Carolingians and the eventual takeover of Charlemagne. This, too, is simplifying it, but understanding the development of Europe is important to understand the spread of religion, the fact that not everywhere was religious-it was just a major power-and the height of the medieval period, which was when the crusades happened. The crusades themselves are a tricky thing to consider, and understanding the nature of them as connected to the Teutonic Knights is going to be very important to understanding the source of Prussia's creation. I really wish I had my notes on this to give you specifics, but there were a lot of crusades, and the base understanding of "paganism" and "stamping it out" and all those ... words is a lot more complicated than even Wikipedia touches on (though its explanations aren't terrible).

Before attacking head canon for his development as a nation and the eventual progression to being adapted into Germany and all the complicated stuff around that, I'd suggest studying religion in the medieval period, war, and then the progression of these ideas as it worked toward the 18th and 19th centuries. Focus on the major intellectual movements as you go, as they do actually play a part in the development of nations-or the development of nations influenced them. It goes both ways.

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd finally, when I read the strips, I do admit I see a Prussia very different from the one I see in threads you've linked. According to your portrayal and headcanon, he's a lot more "sad and alone" and "daunted and put down" (I don't know why that's in quotes, er) than he appears to be in the comic. Prussia, as a nation, is portrayed rather well for what I thought he would be like. When I first read the strips a while ago to see how Austria was represented (I'd initially thought Austria should be a woman, so I wanted to see how it was handled), and the first strips I read were with Prussia. It'd make sense that Prussia would be a country that's basically a shounen retard of I AM FUCKING AWESOME, and I see a lot of "boo hoo I'm forgotten" within your development. This may be a camp thing, but it confuses me. I may also just be reading the wrong threads.

In conclusion, I have read Hetalia (actually-mostly the stuff involving your country, Austria, and a couple of others, as I'm quite fond of them as a historian, so it's probably why I'm being harder on you), but I think I'm looking at it differently, possibly because I'm coming in as a history major who's spent a lot of time with this. I think I have a bigger problem with people interpreting Hetalia as "oversimplified" rather than a "concise summary." They're very different ways of looking at it. Yes, it's a light-hearted canon, but you can make history light-hearted while studying it seriously.

[anoathkept]

Furthermore, I am willing to help you understand the medieval stuff a little bit better once I do have access to my books (though my notes are, unfortunately, lost to the ether). I already offered, but you said you're better after the sixteenth century, and medieval stuff is tricky. I'd probably be a better help for Germany, England, and Italy than you (edit and France, deeeeeer), but I do know enough to guide and interpret and point you in the right direction, regarding the general overall feel of the era.

It's something I'm insanely passionate about, and I don't want to come off the wrong way. I'm not being judgmental toward Hetalia players, I just want to help. I just. ... Like I said, yay passion, yay history.

[dasschlechtende]

Just letting you know that I am unscreening your comments because you do have some very valid points made.

I'll definitely hit up researching history from the times you're talking about and making my way forward with it. To be honest, I am better versed in western European history (mostly French as I am a French major) so working with the eastern European history will definitely be tricky.

As for Prussia's characterization, Prussia's shown to be a lot more "FUCK YEAH I'M A BADASS AND YOU'RE GOING DOWN" in historical comics. There has been present-day comics (the Christmas one, for instance?) where he's shown to be very bitter toward the others AND very sad and alone. But it's covered by things like denial ("Ah, I'm so happy being alone, I have tears welling in my eyes.") and usually volatile (i.e. Shounen Retard--and I mean retard) behavior. Yeah, I've been playing up these parts of his personality more than I should and it's definitely something I'm working on because I've noticed it myself. It's one of those things where I don't want to totally and completely just 180 without warning though because otherwise it'd just make the RPing with the people he has met in camp already a bit more difficult. But as I've said in other posts, I AM going to have things back on track by the 25th if not sooner. (Because then I have Mardi Gras break to work on the development...)

To be honest, I am VERY grateful you're pointing this out to me now instead of later because it just solidifies the fact that yeah, I'm sort of doing it wrong and it needs to be fixed now rather than later. So I'll definitely be working on it and looking over canon as well as history.

And I will definitely be hitting you up for help on the history lessons (lolz, I'm a minor not a major in history and never had many classes dealing with the medieval times drrdrrdrr).

Thank you so much and I'm sorry my characterization is still wonky ;; Hopefully things'll fix themselves as I work on it.

[anoathkept]

Well, when approaching a character like this, you have to remember where the character came from and where he's going, and strike that balance between it. It's a very important thing to keep in mind, and like you said, you're emphasizing the present stuff a little too much. Of course, I do like that you're not playing toward that instead of toward the typical Prussian stereotypes, but yeah, make sure there's both sides there! I'm sure anyone you've played with will understand if you need to balance him out more, since he is still pretty new, despite all the comments you've made. You're not expected to have everything perfectly worked out just yet!

I'm willing to talk to you more elsewhere and sorry if I came off as ... well, forceful. I have strong opinions on Hetalia, and I won't lie about it. It's because I am a history major and I wish to devote my life to this field, so if I can help people perceive and RP it better, I'd rather do that than be overwhelmingly negative. Which is why I want to help!

So yeah. SORRY IF I CAME OFF WRONG AT ANY POINT AND THANK YOU FOR LISTENING TO ME AND MY DUMB OPINIONS.

[dasschlechtende]

NO YOU'RE COOL, NOT TO WORRY XD To be honest, I was EXTREMELY daunted by the concrit because of the length, but as I said, you have valid points to make! And it's cool to be passionate about something you're pursuing. If you weren't, I'd probably be worried! So yeah, feel free to help out and point out me being dumb or whatever. Hell, smack me upside the head. I am very receptive to this kind of thing if it broadens my knowledge about things like history as well as improves my playing \o

So we're cool! No worries! I'll definitely be working on things! Thanks again for the help!

[unlistednumber]

I have a question, and it is totally cool if you don't want to answer it or if you want a canonmate to answer it for you or whatever floats your boat.

My question is: what are you viewing the countries as being? I admit, I'm not really certain by your answer XD Like. I think what you're saying is that the countries are not necessarily representative of the leaders of the country but instead the people of the country? So that if you were to grab EVERY PERSON EVER in a country and distill them down into one being, that's what the country is. Or am I misreading entirely?

[dasschlechtende]

Ahaha, no, it's a fair question. Countries aren't really so much their leaders or the people of the country--more of the ideas from them? Like, their people have a HUGE part in how they're like. Hetalia characters are based off of country stereotypes--e.g. America is an optimistic idiot who loves hamburgers and doesn't know geography, Italy is a happy-go-lucky guys who likes siestaing in the nude and LOVES pasta, etc...

But while they do have these characteristics of the GENERAL population, they're still they're own person with their own unique identity. A lot of their lives and thus some of their personality, however, are impacted by how their people are/how other people view their country, etc?

Idk if that makes sense, I think America once wrote an essay about this kind of thing before, if it helps any?

[unlistednumber]

I think I get you, but I'm not quite sure. Like, when I read Hetalia I assume that each country is in fact kind of like the legal identity of countries on the international stage. And so the personality of each country in front of the tribunal or whatever is the aggregate sum of cultural values, laws, leaders in society both past and present, social mores of the society and general societal quirks that make up the country, distilled into a moe archetype. Like, Australia is certainly different to both John Howard and Kevin Rudd, however it's been shaped by both of them and so has their influence on it.

Is that sort of what you mean? That each factor influences Hetalia's characters?

[dasschlechtende]

Yeah, actually. I'm probably no good at explaining this sort of thing, but I don't mean to exclude the people or the events that have shaped a country into how it is. That's definitely a large part of what makes them them, after all.

But in addition to that kind of thing, you have the Hetalia characters as actually people who have their own thoughts and ideas. And thus, maybe sides of their personalities that aren't necessarily wholly contributed to their people? Leaders or otherwise. Then again, there's probably a blurred line between that and the rest of the personification thing, so... it's really hard to put your finger on that kind of thing, but yeah, largely the Hetalia characters are influenced by all those different factors. They are what make a country, I would assume?

ALSO IF I FAIL AT EXPLAINING, I'M SORRY. I-I'm failing at the coherency atm. ;;

[dasschlechtende]

As for what a country is outside of Hetalia... that, I admit to not being too sure of myself. I do largely think the people have a role to play in making a country what it is. But in order for there to be a country, there has to be structure and government of a sort. So a leader is important and necessary in the making of a country.

... I don't really claim to know much about things like that outside of that viewpoint, however. Sorry ;;

[unlistednumber]

HAHAH well, it's RP! I wouldn't expect anyone to know it. I was just curious as to how you're interpreting the whole...country thing in camp, that's all.

[dasschlechtende]

|D It's no problem! We've actually had discussions like this within our cast and such, but basically the stuff above covers it?

... my castmembers can comment more to clarify if you're still curious and I fail at explaining things though |D