Witness

[darkveggie]

I'm supposed to give a testimony to my youth group on Friday about faith and my life in general. The structure's probably going to change when I actually say the words, but the message is the same, I hope. And so it won't spoil anything if I post it here

Comments

[n0es]

hey yeah there's a question i could never answer about faith... isn't it selfish to do it (good works) for your own salvation?

[darkveggie]

Martin Luther's revolution was based on "The righteous will live by faith."
Ephesians 2:8-9 says,
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
Short answer.

[n0es]

Well, good, I'm a bit Lutheran myself :P

But does faith exist without practicing it? And in what way may it be practiced unselfishly yet socially (i.e. involving anyone else)?

[darkveggie]

Well... faith is de facto (1) active (otherwise it isn't there, or it's dead), and (2) selfless. To me, a lot of my faith means me saying, "I just don't have the answers. God, I'm not smart enough for this. I trust and wait that you will guide me and encourage me, so that whatever I need You will have waiting for me in Your time, and wherever I go You will be with me."

[n0es]

Yah, really I've come to the same conclusion a long time ago myself (so I'm not just shooting in the dark... or is that in truth what we are all doing!), I just err on the side of agnostic nowadays.

[idntunknwn]

I'm leaning towards yes if you do the good deeds only for the sake of your own salvation. It would be like trying to buy salvation without truly believing in what you're doing. To bring it to more modern terms, doing volunteer work simply to earn SSL hours, or doing volunteer work because you believe it is of vital importance to human society. Of course this is simply my personal opinion.

I'm not particularly religious, so excuse my lack of knowledge, but I'm envisioning two conflicting viewpoints brought up as a result of contemplating this post. One viewpoint says that if you do good deeds, you earn salvation. The other viewpoint says that if you have faith and you pray for forgiveness, you can earn your salvation that way. How do good deeds fit into the latter viewpoint? Do they? Which viewpoint do you happen to believe? :)

[idntunknwn]

Ah yes, Martin Luther's revolution would definitely eliminate the former viewpoint.

[darkveggie]

it's time to break it down, Magnet style. Remember deductive logic, anyone?
Let A = salvation, B = faith, and C = good works.
Does C->A->B?
No!
B->A->B&C.
This model says that our faith catalyzes our salvation, namely the forgiveness of sins and the promise of eternal life. Without God's grace, we cannot attain salvation, simply because we are not like God - holy, sinless, righteous. (can't touch this) But God provides a way out - when we (a) recognize that salvation can't be attained by our own effort, and (b) accept that Jesus's life and death is the key to God's forgiveness. Then, after salvation, if we are truly saved, our faith grows and we can do good works - as gratitude, not penance.

[idntunknwn]

Haha well my question was more, is it C->A or B->A? If the latter, where does C come in? But anyways...

isn't it selfish to do it (good works) for your own salvation
after salvation, if we are truly saved, our faith grows and we can do good works - as gratitude, not penance.

I guess the question boils down to, which is it? Good works->salvation, or salvation->good works. Of course, you already answered that, just making it clearer my original intent.

[liljetai]

good works is an effect of having God in your life.. none of us are worthy of earning salvation/none of us can.