Voice and POV in JK's writing
anonymous
February 14 2013, 09:08:46 UTC
I believe she's done similar things in the Harry Potter books, although I don't know the technical term to describe it. Most of the time the books follow Harry around in some kind of third-person way, but there are a handful of chapters and sections that are completely outside Harry's realm of experience. I first noticed it while re-reading the first book. On page 186 (American hard-cover edition), we abruptly shift from following Harry around in his first quidditch match to a conversation between Harry's friends in the stands. The shift was so jarring that at first I wondered if Harry could actually hear them- but it soon became clear that he was too far away. Here, take a look at this section:
"Kept outta trouble, though, that's somethin'," said Hagrid, raising his binoculars and peering skyward at the speck that was Harry. Way up above them, Harry was gliding over the game, squinting about for some sign of the Snitch. This was part of his and Wood's game plan. "Keep out of the way until you catch sight of the Snitch," Wood had said. "We don't want you attacked before you have to be." (p. 187)
In the first section, we're clearly in the stands with Harry's friends and Harry can't hear them. In the second section, it seems we may still be in the stands since they are watching Harry "gliding over the game," but the mention of "his and Wood's game plan" brings the realm of experience completely back to Harry. The third section is completely Harry's experience, but in a past-tense. (There are some odd tense changes in the following paragraph too, between "had done" and "now was.") The rest of the chapter continues to switch back and forth in that kind of sneakily abrupt way.
Another clear example of this POV style is in the first chapter of the first book, where we switch between Mr. Dursley, Mrs. Dursley, the Dursleys as a couple, Dumbledore and McGonagall. There also seems to be a clearer narrator's voice, distinct from the characters, than what we find in the rest of the series. Some other chapters that figure outside Harry's experience are the first two chapters of the sixth book, "The Other Minister" and "Spinner's End." I'm certain there are more examples, but I'm too lazy to go look them up right now.
I agree this POV style is jarring. It interrupts the flow of the story when you have to stop and figure out who said what. I do think JK did a much better job in Casual Vacancy than in Harry Potter, but I also think it could still use some clarification. I'm of the philosophy that it's the writer's job to write clearly, not the reader's job to decode what the writer meant to say. However, I know there are others who believe that the less comprehensible a book, the more "adult" it is. (I've been told James Joyce is a great writer- I'll just say my tastes are not that sophisticated.) I think it's possible that JK purposely chose a complex style for this book in order to make it absolutely clear that this is "serious literature." That, along with the focus on "adult themes" like sex, drugs, and politics makes me think this book was one giant "f*** you" to all the people who called her a children's writer. I don't know, maybe I'm over-reaching here, but I wouldn't put it past her. In any case, I absolutely think it's a great book and I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the rest of it. -Kairde
Re: Voice and POV in JK's writingcelestlynFebruary 15 2013, 00:22:06 UTC
When the Harry Potter series began, JKR was unknown and basically a new author. Although college educated, she may not have been particularly savvy in regard to some of the finer points of writing. POV, voice, tense and general consistency seem to be rather random. In my opinion, it is the job of her editor to address these issues. These people are paid to ferret out the inconsistencies and the things that disrupt the flow of a story. I'm not sure where her editor was during the HP series, but by the time she has written seven books and launched into her adult book, she should have those kinds of things figured out. I can only assume that her style in The Casual Vacancy was intentional because her editors would likely have been extra cautious, making sure that her writing was up to speed in the adult world.
Re: Voice and POV in JK's writingdarkironyFebruary 15 2013, 00:48:09 UTC
I don't think she had a very firm editor. I just ran into "seemed" two sentences in a row. (I hate the word "seemed" so I notice it.)
I do find the moments of boners and boyhood sexual fantasizing amusing after HP. It's hard enough to get sections of that nature into a work smoothly at the best of times. They have an extra cold bluntness in this piece.
What I keep coming back to, and is probably the main reason I started the book is, say you have this impossibly unlikely situation where you can write whatever you want and millions of people will read it without you having to do anything. What are you going to write about? What a concept!
Re: Voice and POV in JK's writingcelestlynFebruary 15 2013, 01:37:41 UTC
Too bad about the editor. I wonder if it's horribly intimidating to be JKR's editor.
I sort of cringed a little at some of those amusing 'boners and boyhood sexual fantasizing'. I'm sure she meant it to be jarring and a complete change of characterization, but it doesn't seem exactly free-flowing. I've read enough mature HP stories (yes, it is bound to happen, as there are half a million HP stories on ff.net alone) by some excellent writers to know that even stories meant to have that shock value can be written smoothly and in a way that feels completely in character. But then perhaps that was all part of her establishing a 'character' for her teens. That and establish that she was writing adult literature and that she realizes that teens do tend to focus on sexuality, which was mostly ignored in HP, being YA literature.
The book just hasn't grabbed me to the point where I'm riveted and feeling like I can't wait to see what's going to happen next. In fact, much of what I've already read has been forgotten and I'm having trouble keeping the characters straight. I really do want to read this new book of hers. It's just proving less engaging that I would hope for. (That and I'm caught up reading another HP gen-fic that was just completed today. 'Far Beyond a Promise Kept' by oliver.snape, if anyone is interested.)
Re: Voice and POV in JK's writingdarkironyFebruary 15 2013, 00:41:19 UTC
The POV in HP, besides the weird Quidditch scene, is pretty straightforward. It's common to take liberties at the front of a book with the POV; that's the one place you can.
Casual Vacancy is far more disciplined (although the sections just around and after page 95 are not as tightly edited). Two things are making me struggle: 1) the unwavering disembodied character of the general narrator. And I really think that narrator is an extra character, by virtue of not being attached to the 3rd person of each section. So rather than the usual 3rd person where we have one "narrator" at a time, in this case we have two at a time. This is probably harder to write, but given the large numbers of characters, probably the only way to do it. I think if that disembodied narrator were less of a character . . . was less opinionated and had fewer values. . . . maybe that would help me out.
2) Now that I'm on page 111, I'm being battered by the sheer volume of asides and backstory. It's akin to the pop music Wall of Sound. I can't come up with a better parallel than that. We are shown something, then told it, like the echo of the bass guitar coming through on the mic of the lead guitar. She's handling the method well, keeping the pacing and mixture of dialog and description consistent as it goes along, it's just more stuff at a time than I really want.
I did hit a section that was actually riveting and that was where Krystal is struggling with Kay over her mom's treatment. approx. page 105. Krystal is one of the few characters that feels real to me. And her struggles are closer to home, I expect, for Rowling. Makes sense in other ways too, she's the one with the most at stake and in storytelling that is key. We've been told several times that the Indian woman has some emotion at stake, but I haven't been shown it, only told it, and I have no faith in it. Even Cubby's emotions don't seem real (i.e., crying in the excerpt above).
I think being shown Samantha and MIles(? Hubby, anyway. I'm forgetting character names). Very early on, those two are so incredibly shallow (their main concern is getting rights to tell what they know) and after that, I don't expect anyone in that town to be human.
"Kept outta trouble, though, that's somethin'," said Hagrid, raising his binoculars and peering skyward at the speck that was Harry.
Way up above them, Harry was gliding over the game, squinting about for some sign of the Snitch. This was part of his and Wood's game plan.
"Keep out of the way until you catch sight of the Snitch," Wood had said. "We don't want you attacked before you have to be." (p. 187)
In the first section, we're clearly in the stands with Harry's friends and Harry can't hear them. In the second section, it seems we may still be in the stands since they are watching Harry "gliding over the game," but the mention of "his and Wood's game plan" brings the realm of experience completely back to Harry. The third section is completely Harry's experience, but in a past-tense. (There are some odd tense changes in the following paragraph too, between "had done" and "now was.") The rest of the chapter continues to switch back and forth in that kind of sneakily abrupt way.
Another clear example of this POV style is in the first chapter of the first book, where we switch between Mr. Dursley, Mrs. Dursley, the Dursleys as a couple, Dumbledore and McGonagall. There also seems to be a clearer narrator's voice, distinct from the characters, than what we find in the rest of the series. Some other chapters that figure outside Harry's experience are the first two chapters of the sixth book, "The Other Minister" and "Spinner's End." I'm certain there are more examples, but I'm too lazy to go look them up right now.
I agree this POV style is jarring. It interrupts the flow of the story when you have to stop and figure out who said what. I do think JK did a much better job in Casual Vacancy than in Harry Potter, but I also think it could still use some clarification. I'm of the philosophy that it's the writer's job to write clearly, not the reader's job to decode what the writer meant to say. However, I know there are others who believe that the less comprehensible a book, the more "adult" it is. (I've been told James Joyce is a great writer- I'll just say my tastes are not that sophisticated.) I think it's possible that JK purposely chose a complex style for this book in order to make it absolutely clear that this is "serious literature." That, along with the focus on "adult themes" like sex, drugs, and politics makes me think this book was one giant "f*** you" to all the people who called her a children's writer. I don't know, maybe I'm over-reaching here, but I wouldn't put it past her. In any case, I absolutely think it's a great book and I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the rest of it.
-Kairde
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I do find the moments of boners and boyhood sexual fantasizing amusing after HP. It's hard enough to get sections of that nature into a work smoothly at the best of times. They have an extra cold bluntness in this piece.
What I keep coming back to, and is probably the main reason I started the book is, say you have this impossibly unlikely situation where you can write whatever you want and millions of people will read it without you having to do anything. What are you going to write about? What a concept!
Reply
I sort of cringed a little at some of those amusing 'boners and boyhood sexual fantasizing'. I'm sure she meant it to be jarring and a complete change of characterization, but it doesn't seem exactly free-flowing. I've read enough mature HP stories (yes, it is bound to happen, as there are half a million HP stories on ff.net alone) by some excellent writers to know that even stories meant to have that shock value can be written smoothly and in a way that feels completely in character. But then perhaps that was all part of her establishing a 'character' for her teens. That and establish that she was writing adult literature and that she realizes that teens do tend to focus on sexuality, which was mostly ignored in HP, being YA literature.
The book just hasn't grabbed me to the point where I'm riveted and feeling like I can't wait to see what's going to happen next. In fact, much of what I've already read has been forgotten and I'm having trouble keeping the characters straight. I really do want to read this new book of hers. It's just proving less engaging that I would hope for. (That and I'm caught up reading another HP gen-fic that was just completed today. 'Far Beyond a Promise Kept' by oliver.snape, if anyone is interested.)
Reply
Casual Vacancy is far more disciplined (although the sections just around and after page 95 are not as tightly edited). Two things are making me struggle: 1) the unwavering disembodied character of the general narrator. And I really think that narrator is an extra character, by virtue of not being attached to the 3rd person of each section. So rather than the usual 3rd person where we have one "narrator" at a time, in this case we have two at a time. This is probably harder to write, but given the large numbers of characters, probably the only way to do it. I think if that disembodied narrator were less of a character . . . was less opinionated and had fewer values. . . . maybe that would help me out.
2) Now that I'm on page 111, I'm being battered by the sheer volume of asides and backstory. It's akin to the pop music Wall of Sound. I can't come up with a better parallel than that. We are shown something, then told it, like the echo of the bass guitar coming through on the mic of the lead guitar. She's handling the method well, keeping the pacing and mixture of dialog and description consistent as it goes along, it's just more stuff at a time than I really want.
I did hit a section that was actually riveting and that was where Krystal is struggling with Kay over her mom's treatment. approx. page 105. Krystal is one of the few characters that feels real to me. And her struggles are closer to home, I expect, for Rowling. Makes sense in other ways too, she's the one with the most at stake and in storytelling that is key. We've been told several times that the Indian woman has some emotion at stake, but I haven't been shown it, only told it, and I have no faith in it. Even Cubby's emotions don't seem real (i.e., crying in the excerpt above).
I think being shown Samantha and MIles(? Hubby, anyway. I'm forgetting character names). Very early on, those two are so incredibly shallow (their main concern is getting rights to tell what they know) and after that, I don't expect anyone in that town to be human.
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