TVD 3x18: "Did you learn nothing from the moonstone in the soap dish?"

[dante_kent]

So a lot of this episode was basically a massive love letter to me. The rest...was basically a massive fuck you. Show, the things you do to me.

Comments

[ever_neutral]

But in terms of Elena's characterization? This was just WRONG. Her utter lack of concern for Damon's well-being was just absurd.

Hmmmmmmm, you're not the only person to complain about this. Full disclosure: I am actually not viscerally bothered by this, as much as I agree that it was dodgy writing. I think I'm not so bugged because the episode (and every episode, basically) hammered home how much Elena wants to ~save everybody, and then you get to Damon, and she's actually NOT killing herself over this. I just appreciate that. Also, I kind of dig the trolling of expectations. You would THINK that Damon's life being threatened like this would signal a SHIFT in their relationship, but… it's just business as usual. Because Damon and Elena just don't really get those big!epic moments. No big ~revelations~ to a swelling musical score will occur. So… I guess I liked how anticlimactic it was? Because I am predictable?

Also, everything Marta said about Elena knowing Damon well enough to know he wouldn't want her fussing over him (irl, not in a dream sequence).

Haha, I had very opposite feelings about that Stefan/Elena(/Damon) scene from you. I continue to side-eye the handling of S/E a lot tbh.

Elena loves Stefan. I don't doubt this for a second. I happen to think she loves Damon more (or at least in a way that is more essential, more permeating, more all-consuming).

FASCINATING. PLEASE TO BE ELABORATING? I kinda dislike naming "degrees" of love, but I'd love to get your thoughts on this.

Elena: I never stopped loving you.
Stefan: I know that. I know you didn't.
I thought this was gorgeous, the absolute certainty with which he said this… For all their mutual self-delusions as a couple, Stefan does know Elena.

Okay yeah, this moment I loved. For all the reasons you describe.

Agreed on the Elena characterisation wrt Stefan's declaration that she's in love with Damon. The way she totally clammed up and just COULDN'T MOVE. Elena Gilbert, so certain of everything, then when it comes to Damon Salvatore, she KNOWS nothing at all -- she just FEELS.

And Elena looks so guilty, like she disappointed him. And she has. Because she told him it was always going to be him, and she was wrong.

SHUT UP, YOU ARE MAKING ME LIKE THIS SCENE.

I kind of like this plot twist with Alterlaric (Alter-Alaric? Get it? Hush I'm running on no sleep here).

ILU.

omg Liz, do not talk to me about that promo. MY EMOTIONS ARE NOT READY. SEND HELP.

[dante_kent]

I've been thinking about my frustration with the D/E of the episode, and I think it's partially because we got that scene with Stefan when Elena WAS concerned, and then she just...stopped being concerned. Like, it was too much of a turnaround to go from "We have to save Damon, never mind about this plan!" to basically not caring at all and letting it all happen, nbd. I could've bought Elena being all mission is what matters from the start, but having her take a total 180 on the matter jarred me. I suppose I thought that when she WAS worried they were laying groundwork, and when nothing came of it I felt like the storyline was unfinished. She was just so detached from the entire storyline after that first scene, and it got to me in a way I wasn't expecting.

Because Damon and Elena just don't really get those big!epic moments. No big ~revelations~ to a swelling musical score will occur. So… I guess I liked how anticlimactic it was?

See, I love that too. So I really don't know why this episode bothered me so much. I'll get over it. It just rankled me in a way that nothing else lately really has (at least regarding D/E. You know well that I'm one of those shippers who has not really minded the recent estrangement. I kind of dug it, really.).

I kinda dislike naming "degrees" of love, but I'd love to get your thoughts on this.

I tend to shy away from degrees of love too, but I will happily attempt to explain what I mean. I think Elena loves Stefan in a very rational way. This sounds like I'm saying her love for him is less intense, less passionate, and that's not what I mean at all. But really, just look at that scene in 3x16. She first fell for Stefan because he made her feel safe. She sensed something about him that was what she needed - someone she couldn't ruin. There are reasons for why she loves Stefan, and reasons for why she continued to love him.

Meanwhile, with Damon, everything is a mistake. He got under her skin, and she can't shake him. The way she feels about him is uncontrollable, because it's irrational. There aren't any reasons to love Damon. There are a million reasons why she shouldn't. But she does, and she can't stop, because she couldn't stop it from happening in the first place. That's what I mean about her love for Damon being more permeating, more all-consuming. It's intrinsic, something that evolved from the natural connection (the understanding!) between her and Damon. She and Damon are freakishly similar in some fundamental ways, and they recognize something in each other. So Elena's feelings for him are part of the very fibre of her being - they aren't because she met him, was charmed by him, saw he was good boyfriend material, and fell for him. It's all because there is something about him that she can't let go of. There's no mental process involved in her relationship with Damon. Let's be honest, she should have gotten rid of him a long time ago. He has done too many truly despicable things to her and all her loved ones for her to tolerate him. But he's still around, because she needs him. It's against her will, this love she has for him, and it's for that reason that I think it's more essential to her. It's something she is stuck with, for better or for worse - it's instinctive. She will always love Stefan too, but she can manage her feelings for him, because she understands her feelings for him. But nothing about her and Damon makes any sense. Damon breaks her down, makes her crazy, makes her unable to control herself. It's wild, this thing they have. So that's my very long rant about D/E that probably doesn't adequately express my feelings at all, but it's that typical of D/E anyway?

Elena Gilbert, so certain of everything, then when it comes to Damon Salvatore, she KNOWS nothing at all -- she just FEELS.

How do you say these things that just SHUT ME DOWN from FEELINGS? Ugghhhh, all my D/E feels.

SHUT UP, YOU ARE MAKING ME LIKE THIS SCENE.

*EVIL LAUGH.* WELCOME TO MY WORLD.

do not talk to me about that promo. MY EMOTIONS ARE NOT READY. SEND HELP.

I NEED SO MUCH HELP. Seriously, the amount of time I've ALREADY spent obsessing about this episode is worrisome. What am I even going to do with 3 weeks.

[ever_neutral]

oh my god Liz, FUCK YOU. I was okay like a minute ago, and then I read this comment, and now I have ALL OF THE FEELS. /o\ (Beware, this responding comment is a monster.)

Like, it was too much of a turnaround to go from "We have to save Damon, never mind about this plan!" to basically not caring at all and letting it all happen, nbd.

Fair point. I'm inclined to put this incongruency down to dodgy writing tbh. There should have been more insight into Elena's perspective. Like, it seems significant to me that she was very much thinking of going to save Damon - but then she DIDN'T. She decided that the mission should be what matters. Which is a decision I'm totally in favour of, actually, but it can't just have been a practical one. It had to have been influenced by their current estrangement. Elena chose not to go take off after Damon because she has no idea where she stands with him. It IS "out-of-character" for her, purely because Elena will always risk her neck for the people she loves -- but then, she's not supposed to love Damon. She purposefully chose to detach herself.

So, IDK, I can see Elena's process of thought (or, at least, I can imagine it), but now that I think more about the episode, I will say that what was going in her head wasn't translated very well on to the screen? I think the reason I didn't have a problem with what went down initially is because I more or less reside in Elena's headspace, so... her caring about Damon is not in question for me. But to the casual/less invested viewer, it probably came across like she didn't give a fig about him. Maybe that's what bothered you? (lol, let me ~psychoanalyse your brane.) There was more evidence in the episode to suggest that Elena really doesn't care than that she does - because the episode didn't do a very good job of showing things from her perspective.

I think Elena loves Stefan in a very rational way.

IAWTC. You know, for all her misguided romantic beliefs (which, IMO, are heavily gendered and informed by societal expectations anyway)... Elena is a very logical person. She wants things to be ordered and easily divisible. Though she feels things deeply, she wants to be able to JUSTIFY her feelings. And she could do that with Stefan. He was a monster, sure, but he was one of the ~good ones. He symbolised hope in a senseless world. And her desperate quest to get him back amounted to her trying to hold on to her understanding of the world (= this need for hope).

So Elena's feelings for him are part of the very fibre of her being - they aren't because she met him, was charmed by him, saw he was good boyfriend material, and fell for him… It's against her will, this love she has for him, and it's for that reason that I think it's more essential to her. It's something she is stuck with, for better or for worse - it's instinctive.

oh my god. No. NO. YOU CANNOT SAY THINGS LIKE THAT. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

Which is to say: We are in agreement. Dammit. NO.

I sort of feel like Elena's love for Stefan connects with her "principled" self - the part that has certain strong beliefs about the world and wants to maintain those beliefs - while Damon accesses her deeply EMOTIONAL self. She's being totally honest when she says she doesn't "know" what she feels, because really, what she feels for Damon doesn't operate on a conscious/rational level. It goes against most of her principles.

And I think it's interesting, this "wildness" of Elena's feelings, because lbr fiery relationships like that can be toxic. And Damon and Elena's relationship has been legit toxic in the past. But it's also survived everything because ultimately, their ~understanding~ isn't something that burns out.

/all of the feelings /o\

[dante_kent]

I LOVE GIVING YOU ALL THE FEELS. Ok, that sounds really creepy, but I really just mean that I like bringing you into my misery and ship trauma. Which you knew.

Elena will always risk her neck for the people she loves -- but then, she's not supposed to love Damon. She purposefully chose to detach herself.

This totally works for me. My problem is how much I had to meta myself into liking this part of the episode. Usually I find everything in canon somehow (even though I'm probably just overanalyzing), and I can close-read all the subtext and acting and direction to support what I think is happening. But this episode didn't help me out AT ALL - as much as I completely agree with what you're saying, it just wasn't apparent to me upon first watch. And usually I reside in Elena's headspace too (to a point, but enough to make me an Elena-stan in a fairly anti-Elena fandom), so it frustrated me that all of these lovely nuances in her fucked up psychological process were barely there within the text.

Though she feels things deeply, she wants to be able to JUSTIFY her feelings. And she could do that with Stefan.

YES, EXACTLY. She's a very passionate person, but even when she does wrong things, she can reason them away. She has Jeremy compelled, which is a violating, deeply questionable act completely driven by her love and devotion toward her brother, but she can rationalize it all. Even if it WAS emotionally inspired, it can still be logically explained. And there were always reasons why Stefan deserved her love. She may have been acting semi-irrationally all season in her relentless insistence on saving him because of the intensity of her love for him, but there was always a set of reasons why she should.

And her desperate quest to get him back amounted to her trying to hold on to her understanding of the world (= this need for hope).

Brb, shedding a few tears.

I sort of feel like Elena's love for Stefan connects with her "principled" self - the part that has certain strong beliefs about the world and wants to maintain those beliefs - while Damon accesses her deeply EMOTIONAL self.

YES YES YES THIS. You can always whittle down my paragraphs of rambling into one incisive sentence. I want to talk about this, but I can't think of anything that wouldn't just be repetition. This, exactly.

what she feels for Damon doesn't operate on a conscious/rational level. It goes against most of her principles.

Which explains why she treats him so differently to everyone else in her life, even when they're just friends. Damon INFURIATES her, partially because he's himself, and partially because he makes her question herself and who she is. If anyone else in the world exhibited his kind of behavior, she would refuse to have anything to do with him. But somehow Damon's still around, and more than that, she needs him around, and she hates that she can't understand it, that she can't control it. It goes against everything she wants to believe she is, this good, moral, principled girl - Damon is a threat to Elena's vision of herself. And he's still fucking here.

And Damon and Elena's relationship has been legit toxic in the past. But it's also survived everything because ultimately, their ~understanding~ isn't something that burns out.

DYING. This is why I will go down with this ship. It is BAD for them, but it's also absolutely essential to the other's continued existence. It's fucked up and wrong and wonderful.

Ugh, all the feelings. Why.

[ever_neutral]

I LOVE GIVING YOU ALL THE FEELS.

;)

You can always whittle down my paragraphs of rambling into one incisive sentence.

Our relationship is gross.

It goes against everything she wants to believe she is, this good, moral, principled girl - Damon is a threat to Elena's vision of herself. And he's still fucking here.

AMEN. And will still be here, even when there's nothing of herself (or what she perceives as "herself") left. This is how they work, fools.

It is BAD for them, but it's also absolutely essential to the other's continued existence.

See, I don't know that it IS inherently bad though? Let's not think that intrinsic understanding = neck-snapping of brothers. LOL. The bad shit that's gone down in their relationship came out of (phenomenally) bad choices and character flaws. Not from their ability to understand each other. IDK. I just don't want to play to the idea that the connection between Damon and Elena necessarily means world-ending angst (which I have seen some people suggest). It really just depends on what they do with it.
/protective of the brOTP

[dante_kent]

NO NO I AGREE. Obviously I am obsessed with the D/E relationship, and I absolutely do not buy into the whole world-ending angst nonsense. What I mean is that they themselves think it's bad for them, because it's a lack of control - they don't WANT it. Elena especially hates it, because it's everything she doesn't want to feel, and everything she can't help. Damon's a bit more used to being a fool for love (can't resist the reference), but the kind of love Elena makes him feel is also something that is out of his comfort zone, and he doesn't like it. Let all those romantic souls out there say what they want, but I really believe that given the choice to stop feeling the way they do, both of them would probably take it. It's too complicated, and it's too vulnerable, and it's too fucking permanent. And neither of them really understands where it came from.

So yes, the actual bad stuff between them has nothing to do with their understanding. I just think that despite everything, both Damon and Elena are extremely self-contained and self-disciplined people, and this thing that is beyond their ability to dictate is making them both crazy. Which, to be fair, is why I am so in love with it.

[ever_neutral]

What I mean is that they themselves think it's bad for them, because it's a lack of control - they don't WANT it. Elena especially hates it, because it's everything she doesn't want to feel, and everything she can't help. Damon's a bit more used to being a fool for love (can't resist the reference), but the kind of love Elena makes him feel is also something that is out of his comfort zone, and he doesn't like it.

Ahhhhhhhhhhh IAWTC. SO MUCH WORD, they would both choose to rid themselves of their feelings if they could. BUT THEY CAN'T, so good angst for us. :)

I just think that despite everything, both Damon and Elena are extremely self-contained and self-disciplined people, and this thing that is beyond their ability to dictate is making them both crazy.

So much yes. It's funny to think of Damon as "self-contained and self-disciplined", but he really is. Elena is the worst because he can't perform around her, it just doesn't work. And vice versa.

In conclusion, THEY ARE BEAUTIFUL AND DOOMED.

[upupa_epops]

You know, the whole paragraph about D/E vs S/E looks as if Damon wrote it XDDDDDDDDDD. Which, I approve of.

[dante_kent]

Haven't we established by now that I am Damon Salvatore? >:} (that's supposed to be a vampire face...um.)

[upupa_epops]

Indeed, but it's still amusing when you argue for D/E using Damon!brain :DDDDD.