TVD 3x18: "Did you learn nothing from the moonstone in the soap dish?"

[dante_kent]

So a lot of this episode was basically a massive love letter to me. The rest...was basically a massive fuck you. Show, the things you do to me.

Comments

[ever_neutral]

What if the ring makes you into a murderer as a way to reassert balance? Because the ring helps you cheat death, which is against the natural order of things. So what if it makes you take lives as compensation for the death(s) you should have had?

I LOVE IT. All the awards to you. The writers should subscribe to your newsletter.

And the little look she gives him after he says it, it's a very brief flash of panic, because he knows. He can see right through her, and she can't stop him.

Amen. I love, of course, that this is one way in which their relationship is 100% mutual.

I have always, always adored that moment with Damon and Jeremy (can we have more of those two? Oh wait we will next week! Forgive my stream of consciousness rambling. This is why my recaps are so long. I don't delete. I just correct. With more words.) when Little Gilbert comes to kill Damon and talks himself out of it.

YES TO ALL YOUR FEELS. Forever pressed they dropped the Damon-Jeremy Stockholm Syndrome bromance in S2. May this be rectified in episodes to come.

Damon has to do all the whittling. And you stand around and judge him. I see what this is. You want your own brat prince title. Understandable. It's the Salvatore way. I LOVE THE SALVATORE WAY.

AS DO I. My favourite Stefan moment of the ep, lol.

Also, it gave me the image of Psychoanalysis Damon, which, um. Visceral reaction.

WHOA. Whoa.

LOL, I feel you on psychoanalysis being your hobby. Everybody always comes to me with their ~problems. THIS IS WHY WE ARE FRIENDS.

But Damon doesn't let her gloss over his actions - he is awful, and he knows it, and he MAKES her know it too. This is how their relationship works. So Elena doesn't categorize him as a victim who can be saved. He's not. But she loves him anyway.

YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES

YES, LIZ. YES.

You've devised a top secret plan to destroy one of the most powerful beings in the world, and you're TEXTING everybody about it? Oh, the age of technology. Also, this is not secure at all. Just saying.

LOL seriously, Stef bro, get it together.

Also, Damon manhandling Caroline a little after her dig at him? Let's be honest, it was hot. These two should probably have more sex now that they're both vampires. Just saying.

… I actually would not be opposed to this. As long as the show actually dealt more with their gross history of non-con, for once. /party-ruiner

Incidentally, I made the crucial mistake of mentioning to my non-TVD-watching family how much I enjoy torture scenes today, and they looked at me in barely disguised horror.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA your pain is my own. /o\

So any reference to the ongoing trouble of her condition is a good thing to me. Not to mention that her understanding toward Ric makes so much more sense when it's about her being able to relate, not about her ability to forgive (which, to be fair, is also wonderful).

YES YES YES. Flawless characterisation on both their parts. Major Caroline-Elena parallels too, hey hey. Damn, THIS EPISODE WAS SO MUCH BETTER WITH ENSEMBLE CHARACTER WORK, LIZ.

More than anything, I love this: "All I know is, I'm no better than you." I love this show so hard for making it all about relative levels of moral ambiguity. This is only half-forgiveness. This isn't "you didn't mean to, you're a good person, it's not your fault." It's "I'm awful too, we are all awful together." No shame in this bar, basically.

THIS BAR IS THE GREATEST BAR IDEC

And because I take no enjoyment from hallucination OTP validation, so I just wanted to get back to the real stuff. I wanted it to be real.

OMG LIZ, I LOVED THAT IT WASN'T REAL THOUGH? I flailed for a week on my LJ about it. Hopefully it makes you feel a bit better about it.

[ever_neutral]

Also, the darkness, holy excellence, the darkness. Klaus gives Bonnie the choice to save Damon, of all people, Damon, this man that she hates, who she blames so much of the tragedy of her life on. She stares at the horror, sees how utterly fucked up this is, and she leaves him.

UGH, YES YES YES. SOMETIMES THIS SHOW GIVES ME EVERYTHING I WANT FOR BONNIE BENNETT? And you know what, I don't even think Bonnie DOES hate Damon's guts anymore. She was genuinely horrified and viscerally worried over how bad he looked. But that doesn't mean she should put aside her own anger and trauma to help him. Fantastic storytelling decision. AND I LOVED THAT DAMON *KNEW* THAT SHE WOULD LEAVE HIM THERE AND THAT HE ABSOLUTELY DESERVED IT.

There is a good and an evil, and it is her purpose in life to uphold the good. And now she's looking around her and it's all wrong. She's just done something wrong - so many things, really. And they were all for the right reasons, but since when does that matter?

ALL OF YOUR FEELINGS, LIZ. ALL OF THEM. PLEASE TALK ABOUT THIS GIRL FOREVER.

I knew this would be relevant someday!), and I see from the promos *SPOILER ALERT IF YOU CARE* that Rose will be back next week April 19th (fuck everything). I am quite pleased about this. I always liked Rose, and I will be happy to see her again.

OMG ANOTHER PERSON WHO LIKES ROSE? \o/ \o/ \o/

A confirmation of everything we've been discussing, lovely flist, all wrapped up in a delectable Klefan package. In all seriousness, this was a fucking phenomenal moment, and one of those glorious instances when I let myself believe that the writers sometimes do understand and care about Stefan and his character.

THIS. This was actually a pretty good ep for Stefan all around. Probably because it was all about the Klefan? LOL. WHICH ONLY CONFIRMS MY THEORY THAT KLEFAN IS THE TRUE OTP.

Not to mention that she wants to reassert a bit of control, because Klaus has hijacked her game and even if she's on Klaus's side, eternally, unfailingly, she still resents him calling the shots all the time.

Oooooh, nice catch.

REBEKAH AND HER SOFT SPOT FOR THE SALVATORES. Please god, let this be foreshadowing of some sort. All I want is more Rebekah/Salvatores interaction (dare I mention the elusive Stefan/Rebekah? Sssshhhh apparently it's a secret that that ever existed).

OMG MAKE IT HAPPEN.

Nothing will ever convince me that Klaus and Rebekah aren't a couple. Their scene was charged and tense and excellent.

SERIOUSLY. The show doesn't give intense, charged moments like this to any two people who are not a romantic ship. Like. Come on.

[ever_neutral]

But in terms of Elena's characterization? This was just WRONG. Her utter lack of concern for Damon's well-being was just absurd.

Hmmmmmmm, you're not the only person to complain about this. Full disclosure: I am actually not viscerally bothered by this, as much as I agree that it was dodgy writing. I think I'm not so bugged because the episode (and every episode, basically) hammered home how much Elena wants to ~save everybody, and then you get to Damon, and she's actually NOT killing herself over this. I just appreciate that. Also, I kind of dig the trolling of expectations. You would THINK that Damon's life being threatened like this would signal a SHIFT in their relationship, but… it's just business as usual. Because Damon and Elena just don't really get those big!epic moments. No big ~revelations~ to a swelling musical score will occur. So… I guess I liked how anticlimactic it was? Because I am predictable?

Also, everything Marta said about Elena knowing Damon well enough to know he wouldn't want her fussing over him (irl, not in a dream sequence).

Haha, I had very opposite feelings about that Stefan/Elena(/Damon) scene from you. I continue to side-eye the handling of S/E a lot tbh.

Elena loves Stefan. I don't doubt this for a second. I happen to think she loves Damon more (or at least in a way that is more essential, more permeating, more all-consuming).

FASCINATING. PLEASE TO BE ELABORATING? I kinda dislike naming "degrees" of love, but I'd love to get your thoughts on this.

Elena: I never stopped loving you.
Stefan: I know that. I know you didn't.
I thought this was gorgeous, the absolute certainty with which he said this… For all their mutual self-delusions as a couple, Stefan does know Elena.

Okay yeah, this moment I loved. For all the reasons you describe.

Agreed on the Elena characterisation wrt Stefan's declaration that she's in love with Damon. The way she totally clammed up and just COULDN'T MOVE. Elena Gilbert, so certain of everything, then when it comes to Damon Salvatore, she KNOWS nothing at all -- she just FEELS.

And Elena looks so guilty, like she disappointed him. And she has. Because she told him it was always going to be him, and she was wrong.

SHUT UP, YOU ARE MAKING ME LIKE THIS SCENE.

I kind of like this plot twist with Alterlaric (Alter-Alaric? Get it? Hush I'm running on no sleep here).

ILU.

omg Liz, do not talk to me about that promo. MY EMOTIONS ARE NOT READY. SEND HELP.

[dante_kent]

I've been thinking about my frustration with the D/E of the episode, and I think it's partially because we got that scene with Stefan when Elena WAS concerned, and then she just...stopped being concerned. Like, it was too much of a turnaround to go from "We have to save Damon, never mind about this plan!" to basically not caring at all and letting it all happen, nbd. I could've bought Elena being all mission is what matters from the start, but having her take a total 180 on the matter jarred me. I suppose I thought that when she WAS worried they were laying groundwork, and when nothing came of it I felt like the storyline was unfinished. She was just so detached from the entire storyline after that first scene, and it got to me in a way I wasn't expecting.

Because Damon and Elena just don't really get those big!epic moments. No big ~revelations~ to a swelling musical score will occur. So… I guess I liked how anticlimactic it was?

See, I love that too. So I really don't know why this episode bothered me so much. I'll get over it. It just rankled me in a way that nothing else lately really has (at least regarding D/E. You know well that I'm one of those shippers who has not really minded the recent estrangement. I kind of dug it, really.).

I kinda dislike naming "degrees" of love, but I'd love to get your thoughts on this.

I tend to shy away from degrees of love too, but I will happily attempt to explain what I mean. I think Elena loves Stefan in a very rational way. This sounds like I'm saying her love for him is less intense, less passionate, and that's not what I mean at all. But really, just look at that scene in 3x16. She first fell for Stefan because he made her feel safe. She sensed something about him that was what she needed - someone she couldn't ruin. There are reasons for why she loves Stefan, and reasons for why she continued to love him.

Meanwhile, with Damon, everything is a mistake. He got under her skin, and she can't shake him. The way she feels about him is uncontrollable, because it's irrational. There aren't any reasons to love Damon. There are a million reasons why she shouldn't. But she does, and she can't stop, because she couldn't stop it from happening in the first place. That's what I mean about her love for Damon being more permeating, more all-consuming. It's intrinsic, something that evolved from the natural connection (the understanding!) between her and Damon. She and Damon are freakishly similar in some fundamental ways, and they recognize something in each other. So Elena's feelings for him are part of the very fibre of her being - they aren't because she met him, was charmed by him, saw he was good boyfriend material, and fell for him. It's all because there is something about him that she can't let go of. There's no mental process involved in her relationship with Damon. Let's be honest, she should have gotten rid of him a long time ago. He has done too many truly despicable things to her and all her loved ones for her to tolerate him. But he's still around, because she needs him. It's against her will, this love she has for him, and it's for that reason that I think it's more essential to her. It's something she is stuck with, for better or for worse - it's instinctive. She will always love Stefan too, but she can manage her feelings for him, because she understands her feelings for him. But nothing about her and Damon makes any sense. Damon breaks her down, makes her crazy, makes her unable to control herself. It's wild, this thing they have. So that's my very long rant about D/E that probably doesn't adequately express my feelings at all, but it's that typical of D/E anyway?

Elena Gilbert, so certain of everything, then when it comes to Damon Salvatore, she KNOWS nothing at all -- she just FEELS.

How do you say these things that just SHUT ME DOWN from FEELINGS? Ugghhhh, all my D/E feels.

SHUT UP, YOU ARE MAKING ME LIKE THIS SCENE.

*EVIL LAUGH.* WELCOME TO MY WORLD.

do not talk to me about that promo. MY EMOTIONS ARE NOT READY. SEND HELP.

I NEED SO MUCH HELP. Seriously, the amount of time I've ALREADY spent obsessing about this episode is worrisome. What am I even going to do with 3 weeks.

[ever_neutral]

oh my god Liz, FUCK YOU. I was okay like a minute ago, and then I read this comment, and now I have ALL OF THE FEELS. /o\ (Beware, this responding comment is a monster.)

Like, it was too much of a turnaround to go from "We have to save Damon, never mind about this plan!" to basically not caring at all and letting it all happen, nbd.

Fair point. I'm inclined to put this incongruency down to dodgy writing tbh. There should have been more insight into Elena's perspective. Like, it seems significant to me that she was very much thinking of going to save Damon - but then she DIDN'T. She decided that the mission should be what matters. Which is a decision I'm totally in favour of, actually, but it can't just have been a practical one. It had to have been influenced by their current estrangement. Elena chose not to go take off after Damon because she has no idea where she stands with him. It IS "out-of-character" for her, purely because Elena will always risk her neck for the people she loves -- but then, she's not supposed to love Damon. She purposefully chose to detach herself.

So, IDK, I can see Elena's process of thought (or, at least, I can imagine it), but now that I think more about the episode, I will say that what was going in her head wasn't translated very well on to the screen? I think the reason I didn't have a problem with what went down initially is because I more or less reside in Elena's headspace, so... her caring about Damon is not in question for me. But to the casual/less invested viewer, it probably came across like she didn't give a fig about him. Maybe that's what bothered you? (lol, let me ~psychoanalyse your brane.) There was more evidence in the episode to suggest that Elena really doesn't care than that she does - because the episode didn't do a very good job of showing things from her perspective.

I think Elena loves Stefan in a very rational way.

IAWTC. You know, for all her misguided romantic beliefs (which, IMO, are heavily gendered and informed by societal expectations anyway)... Elena is a very logical person. She wants things to be ordered and easily divisible. Though she feels things deeply, she wants to be able to JUSTIFY her feelings. And she could do that with Stefan. He was a monster, sure, but he was one of the ~good ones. He symbolised hope in a senseless world. And her desperate quest to get him back amounted to her trying to hold on to her understanding of the world (= this need for hope).

So Elena's feelings for him are part of the very fibre of her being - they aren't because she met him, was charmed by him, saw he was good boyfriend material, and fell for him… It's against her will, this love she has for him, and it's for that reason that I think it's more essential to her. It's something she is stuck with, for better or for worse - it's instinctive.

oh my god. No. NO. YOU CANNOT SAY THINGS LIKE THAT. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

Which is to say: We are in agreement. Dammit. NO.

I sort of feel like Elena's love for Stefan connects with her "principled" self - the part that has certain strong beliefs about the world and wants to maintain those beliefs - while Damon accesses her deeply EMOTIONAL self. She's being totally honest when she says she doesn't "know" what she feels, because really, what she feels for Damon doesn't operate on a conscious/rational level. It goes against most of her principles.

And I think it's interesting, this "wildness" of Elena's feelings, because lbr fiery relationships like that can be toxic. And Damon and Elena's relationship has been legit toxic in the past. But it's also survived everything because ultimately, their ~understanding~ isn't something that burns out.

/all of the feelings /o\

[dante_kent]

I LOVE GIVING YOU ALL THE FEELS. Ok, that sounds really creepy, but I really just mean that I like bringing you into my misery and ship trauma. Which you knew.

Elena will always risk her neck for the people she loves -- but then, she's not supposed to love Damon. She purposefully chose to detach herself.

This totally works for me. My problem is how much I had to meta myself into liking this part of the episode. Usually I find everything in canon somehow (even though I'm probably just overanalyzing), and I can close-read all the subtext and acting and direction to support what I think is happening. But this episode didn't help me out AT ALL - as much as I completely agree with what you're saying, it just wasn't apparent to me upon first watch. And usually I reside in Elena's headspace too (to a point, but enough to make me an Elena-stan in a fairly anti-Elena fandom), so it frustrated me that all of these lovely nuances in her fucked up psychological process were barely there within the text.

Though she feels things deeply, she wants to be able to JUSTIFY her feelings. And she could do that with Stefan.

YES, EXACTLY. She's a very passionate person, but even when she does wrong things, she can reason them away. She has Jeremy compelled, which is a violating, deeply questionable act completely driven by her love and devotion toward her brother, but she can rationalize it all. Even if it WAS emotionally inspired, it can still be logically explained. And there were always reasons why Stefan deserved her love. She may have been acting semi-irrationally all season in her relentless insistence on saving him because of the intensity of her love for him, but there was always a set of reasons why she should.

And her desperate quest to get him back amounted to her trying to hold on to her understanding of the world (= this need for hope).

Brb, shedding a few tears.

I sort of feel like Elena's love for Stefan connects with her "principled" self - the part that has certain strong beliefs about the world and wants to maintain those beliefs - while Damon accesses her deeply EMOTIONAL self.

YES YES YES THIS. You can always whittle down my paragraphs of rambling into one incisive sentence. I want to talk about this, but I can't think of anything that wouldn't just be repetition. This, exactly.

what she feels for Damon doesn't operate on a conscious/rational level. It goes against most of her principles.

Which explains why she treats him so differently to everyone else in her life, even when they're just friends. Damon INFURIATES her, partially because he's himself, and partially because he makes her question herself and who she is. If anyone else in the world exhibited his kind of behavior, she would refuse to have anything to do with him. But somehow Damon's still around, and more than that, she needs him around, and she hates that she can't understand it, that she can't control it. It goes against everything she wants to believe she is, this good, moral, principled girl - Damon is a threat to Elena's vision of herself. And he's still fucking here.

And Damon and Elena's relationship has been legit toxic in the past. But it's also survived everything because ultimately, their ~understanding~ isn't something that burns out.

DYING. This is why I will go down with this ship. It is BAD for them, but it's also absolutely essential to the other's continued existence. It's fucked up and wrong and wonderful.

Ugh, all the feelings. Why.

[ever_neutral]

I LOVE GIVING YOU ALL THE FEELS.

;)

You can always whittle down my paragraphs of rambling into one incisive sentence.

Our relationship is gross.

It goes against everything she wants to believe she is, this good, moral, principled girl - Damon is a threat to Elena's vision of herself. And he's still fucking here.

AMEN. And will still be here, even when there's nothing of herself (or what she perceives as "herself") left. This is how they work, fools.

It is BAD for them, but it's also absolutely essential to the other's continued existence.

See, I don't know that it IS inherently bad though? Let's not think that intrinsic understanding = neck-snapping of brothers. LOL. The bad shit that's gone down in their relationship came out of (phenomenally) bad choices and character flaws. Not from their ability to understand each other. IDK. I just don't want to play to the idea that the connection between Damon and Elena necessarily means world-ending angst (which I have seen some people suggest). It really just depends on what they do with it.
/protective of the brOTP

[dante_kent]

NO NO I AGREE. Obviously I am obsessed with the D/E relationship, and I absolutely do not buy into the whole world-ending angst nonsense. What I mean is that they themselves think it's bad for them, because it's a lack of control - they don't WANT it. Elena especially hates it, because it's everything she doesn't want to feel, and everything she can't help. Damon's a bit more used to being a fool for love (can't resist the reference), but the kind of love Elena makes him feel is also something that is out of his comfort zone, and he doesn't like it. Let all those romantic souls out there say what they want, but I really believe that given the choice to stop feeling the way they do, both of them would probably take it. It's too complicated, and it's too vulnerable, and it's too fucking permanent. And neither of them really understands where it came from.

So yes, the actual bad stuff between them has nothing to do with their understanding. I just think that despite everything, both Damon and Elena are extremely self-contained and self-disciplined people, and this thing that is beyond their ability to dictate is making them both crazy. Which, to be fair, is why I am so in love with it.

[ever_neutral]

What I mean is that they themselves think it's bad for them, because it's a lack of control - they don't WANT it. Elena especially hates it, because it's everything she doesn't want to feel, and everything she can't help. Damon's a bit more used to being a fool for love (can't resist the reference), but the kind of love Elena makes him feel is also something that is out of his comfort zone, and he doesn't like it.

Ahhhhhhhhhhh IAWTC. SO MUCH WORD, they would both choose to rid themselves of their feelings if they could. BUT THEY CAN'T, so good angst for us. :)

I just think that despite everything, both Damon and Elena are extremely self-contained and self-disciplined people, and this thing that is beyond their ability to dictate is making them both crazy.

So much yes. It's funny to think of Damon as "self-contained and self-disciplined", but he really is. Elena is the worst because he can't perform around her, it just doesn't work. And vice versa.

In conclusion, THEY ARE BEAUTIFUL AND DOOMED.

[upupa_epops]

You know, the whole paragraph about D/E vs S/E looks as if Damon wrote it XDDDDDDDDDD. Which, I approve of.

[dante_kent]

Haven't we established by now that I am Damon Salvatore? >:} (that's supposed to be a vampire face...um.)

[upupa_epops]

Indeed, but it's still amusing when you argue for D/E using Damon!brain :DDDDD.

[dante_kent]

I don't even think Bonnie DOES hate Damon's guts anymore. She was genuinely horrified and viscerally worried over how bad he looked. But that doesn't mean she should put aside her own anger and trauma to help him.

Yes, to all of this. I agree, Bonnie doesn't really hate Damon anymore, certainly not like she used to. But she has zero obligation to him, and that was enough to allow her to leave him. And she HATES it, because she has an inherent need to help everyone, even Damon, but for once she just couldn't sacrifice herself for someone else. It was phenomenal.

AND I LOVED THAT DAMON *KNEW* THAT SHE WOULD LEAVE HIM THERE AND THAT HE ABSOLUTELY DESERVED IT.

OMG THIS THIS THIS.

OMG ANOTHER PERSON WHO LIKES ROSE? \o/ \o/ \o/

Do people NOT like Rose? I loved her! She was awesome, and I was rather emotional when she died. Why don't people like her???

WHICH ONLY CONFIRMS MY THEORY THAT KLEFAN IS THE TRUE OTP.

CO-FUCKING-SIGNED. Stefan only started to annoy me this season when he stopped having barely restrained eyesex with Klaus. Bring those days back to me, show.

The show doesn't give intense, charged moments like this to any two people who are not a romantic ship.

Tbh, these two have more sexual tension than most of the canon couples on the show. Trufact.

[ever_neutral]

Do people NOT like Rose? I loved her! She was awesome, and I was rather emotional when she died. Why don't people like her???

Rose was deeply unpopular. Who knows why. I think some people just didn't like Lauren Cohan? And of course there were the fucking obnoxious Damon/Elena stans who just hated her because she screwed Damon and Elena didn't. (LOL, and now observe those same stans praising Rose for supposedly being on Team Damon in the 3.19 promo.)

/in a mood

[dante_kent]

Um. I loved Lauren Cohan? #doomed to unpopular opinions forever

As you well know, there is something wrong with me as a Damon/Elena stan, since I tend to adore all women Damon sleeps with other than Elena. Case in point being my wild love affair with Rebekah (not that I didn't completely adore her before she got with Damon but HOW HAPPY WAS I when they did bone?). But for those foolish Rose haters who've now jumped aboard the pro-Rose bandwagon, did they not notice how much Rose shipped Damon and Elena even back then? Like, she was talking him up on her deathbed. Ultimate bro move.

[ever_neutral]

I like Lauren too! I don't see how she's a bad actress at all. But there you go.

But for those foolish Rose haters who've now jumped aboard the pro-Rose bandwagon, did they not notice how much Rose shipped Damon and Elena even back then? Like, she was talking him up on her deathbed. Ultimate bro move.

Preach.