student tased for no reason

[dangerdyke]

so many reasons to fear this place. you have probably heard of the florida college student tasered for asking kerry a q. i can't type right now because of pain but jesus fucking christ. he did NOTHING. i have watched the tapes, several tapes from several angles. yes, he resisted arrest, but in a PASSIVE overall way. they fucking tasered him when

Comments

[dangerdyke]

of course i understand there are two sides to every story. i also believe the officers went to far by tasing the guy---i mean, really, he was already on his stomach and had about 8 cops on him---i don't give a hit if he was warned--i believe he should have a right to resist such a ridiculous arrest. no i was not there, but i did watch many different videos from amny angles. i don't appreciate your assumption that i was quick to judge. i specifically watched from amny angles trying to see if he in any way physically threatened the cops so that they felt they would need such use of force to protect themselves. he did not. he certianly was not allowing them to get the ciffs on, but they were wrong to be arresting him in the first place. party they were wrong because they could have decided this was not a case for arrest, and partly the system is wrong if if can apply so generally and sweepingly that this happens. tasers may be needed in the case of a violent person who just committed murder and is trying to escape.

as far as "If he was such the "victim" in all this, then the proper thing to do was to allow the officers to arrest him and when/if any charges brought against him were dismissed, then he could turn around a sue the police department. That's how we do things in a civilized society. We don't escalate a situation into violence." it's too bad that does not work because the courts are overrrun and corrupt. HE did not escaulate the situation into violence---violence, though controlled, was in the hands of the man with the taser and more pervasively in the power structure manifesting itself in the situation.

more to say but too much pain/not enough time. when i can...

[hecksheri]

"Are you on some kind of pain medication? If so, I'll just chalk your posts up to the meds. Otherwise, I'm honestly disappointed."

While I don't disagree (or agree) 100 percent with your position, I believe this was a cheap shot. The sound of a human being screaming in pain is not easy on the ears at all. Despite the fact that I think this tasered kid was an ass who created a situation that was bound to cause problems, the sound of him screaming as he is being tasered has a definate emotional effect...granted probably more so on the more empathetic people than others, but still, a definate affect. I see that you are a police officer. I would, if I were you, keep this in mind if you are ever in a situation where the use of a taser is even a remote option in a public forum. I am surprised they don't mention it in training. You can't tell me that the police officers couldn't get him into the car without tasering him. I think the kid 100 percent deserved to be arrested, but damn when you hear him screaming you can't help but wonder about it for a moment. Like I said, keep this in mind when choosing whether or not to use your taser. Maybe take some aikido classes and learn some effective non-lethal takedowns that don't cause a public spectacle...if not for the good of dumb college kids, than for your own. I am an ex-firefighter so I am not a squeamish person, but I really had a visceral reaction to the honest screams of pain. I get the same reaction when I hear anyone screaming in honest to god pain...the kind of scream that you know aint staged. I think there is something wrong with anyone who can listen to that and not want to try to help. This is the reaction millions of people are having over and over as they watch this video and emotion tends to cloud logic. The effects of this aspect of pain subduance on the general public should be part of your training. This is the kind of shit that can escalate arresting someone into a crowd control situation.

It ain't her pain meds, it's her heart, and I think you owe her an apology because you could have easily handled this conversation with a little more diplomacy. I may not agree with everything she has said here, but I do respect her opinion and her right to disagree with me.

[hecksheri]

If your argument is that I cannot disagree with you because I cannot possibly know anything about it without being a police officer, then I have no comeback that will lead to productive discourse.

[hecksheri]

I fail to see how disagreeing with a police-officer's methods is bashing them. I fail to see how not being a police officer robs me of a right to have an opinion on their methods. I presented my opinion and presented it as such. It was your statement that I had no right to that opinion because I am not a police officer. It is your opinion that I have no right to an opinion that makes me believe this conversation has no purpose. I do disagree and it is a free country, but I have not ever engaged in bashing police officers. I still agree with some, but not all of your points, and you have failed as yet to present me with an argument that could sway my opinion. I am actually open-minded about it. Your assertion that I can't possibly understand is really just a big cop out. Is that really your only argument. If you know why a taser was absolutely necessary to subdue this person, then tell me why you believe that...not that only you can know. The fact that successful arrests of moderately combative perps predate tasers by a great many years suggests to me that there are viable alternatives. I would like to see a well modeled study that provides statistics that show a reduction in the number of injuries in arrests post widespread taser usage. I do believe that there are a great many instances when tasers should be used. While you assert that the crowd was in danger, I respectfully disagree. I did not get the impression he was in danger of injuring anyone, he was just making it as difficult as possible to get him out of the building and making lots of noise for the cameras.

You have not as yet mentioned anything about my assertion that causing a man to scream like that has a negative impact on the emotions of bystanders in such a way that actually can cause legal issues and PR issues for you and your fellow officers. It isn't as if they beat the guy with sticks, but it gives the same kind of visceral crowd reaction as beating a guy with sticks. Tell me why the effect a police method has on the dynamics of crowd control and the effect a police method has on the job safety and security, legal issues, and PR issues should not be considered in deciding when that method should be applied. PR and police safety are intrinsicly connected. The fact of the matter is that this incident, regardless of whether or not the police officers involved used excessive force, has caused problems for police officers all over the country. Is that really worth the advantage gained by the police officers in using a taser in this arrest? It is not just a question of whether or not the taser hurt the guy. Clearly damage was done, but most of it was not done to the kid who got tasered. Unless there is no alternative, tasers should not be used. Even though I am not a police officer and you assert that renders me incapable of having an opinion on the matter, I don't believe that there was no alternative in this situation. That is my opinion. I respect that you disagree with it, but to tell me that I have no right to it because I am not a police officer is not a valid argument and while I can concede that you have more experience in the matter, I don't see why you can't use that experience to present an actual valid argument.

[hecksheri]

Ah, ok. The level of force used was legally appropriate according to the approved training. I am conceding this point. My opinion based on this new information: Given the reaction that people have to people being tased (as I said in a previous post before I read this one...people are losing sight of the fact that it is not the same as a beating)...but given the fact that in general the public reacts to tasing and pepper spraying as they do, perhaps law enforcement should do some studies on crowd psychology and force in an age of video surveillance and rethink the rules. The world is changing and we must often rethink our strategies because of it. Officers who have done exactly as they are trained to do are being hung out to dry for it. While I can now say that the level of force applied was not legally excessive, I do still (my opinion which I don't think is completely invalid) believe that they could have gotten the perp out without anyone getting hurt without resorting to soft intermediate weapons. Apparently public opinion is overwhelmingly in support of the belief that soft intermediate weapons are excessive use of force in response to passive resistance. The public is probably not aware that it is the appropriate level according to approved training methods. It would be better if the news agencies questioned the accepted rules of engagement rather than try to crucify police officers who were doing as they were trained to do.

[hecksheri]

And while our argument has reached an empasse, I think we can still appreciate each others point of view. I am glad we got to this point instead of leaving it where it was an hour or so ago. It is rare that an internet disagreement ends so civily.

Got to get some sleep now.

btw...I am a currently a biology prof., but at heart a scientist and working on getting back into field research.

[dangerdyke]

"However, I will agree that I think most control tactics are not often enough trained on in most departments. For example, we have to qualify with our firearm every quarter by POST (Peace Officer Standards and Training Council) standards. But we never have to take another Defensive Tactics class outside the academy if we don't want to.

I think this is a gross injustice to both the officers and the public. And if DT training was required half as often as firearms training, then maybe the officers would have had the confidence and/or ability to handle the situation without a taser."

ok, well, herein lies my biggest critique--move tasers up higher on the lsit, do not assume they are not going to cause permanent damage or even death (more on that when i can type more--though you seem to think i am an emotioanl mess with no logic, i do have nuamced thoghts/argurmnts on that, jsut can't type it), and get more DT in. so if the system is set up incorrectly, hopefully public critique will help rectify that.

[dangerdyke]

yeah---my prob is that a taser is an approved method for replying to passive resistance...

[hecksheri]

I have been thinking some more on this issue. The use of force continuum only has one axis. It does not account for the number of police officers. Making it to complicated would be a bad idea because officers have to make split second decisions and can't be getting out a pencil and running a formula to decide how to respond to the actions of a criminal. I would like to see some studies done on the actual effect of tasing someone not only on crowd psychology, but on the psychology of someone who is receiving the tasing. The time I got tased (75000 volts by an old school stun gun) I did not feel less like fighting. I came off the ground pissed and ready to beat the fuck out of everything in sight regardless of whether or not it had anything to do with me getting tased...thank god it wasn't a police officer who tased me or I might have done something I'd have regretted before I had a chance to think about it (as it was the dude that tased me had to run and I had to be held back...though I'm sure he could have just tased me again...but god fucking help him when the battery died...I really wanted blood). There should be, on the continuum of force, a situational addendum for passive resistance. If the officer believes the person offering passive resistance can be brought under control using methods not designed to bring pain, those options should be exausted before OC or tasers are employed. (i.e. if there are a large number of officers present). The mere fact that passive resistance is going to cause the officer to spend 10 more minutes getting the perp to the car should not be a justification to use pain. The pain control techniques should be used only when it is neccesary to prevent someone from being injured. One of the reasons I believe this is because being tasered can easily bring a person from a level of passive to active resistance and I am not sure that a person should be held responsible for becoming combative after being exposed to that kind of pain. So, to sum up, yes, I do believe that the policy that prescribes the applicaton of tasers and OC to deal with passive resistance should be seriously reconsidered.

As for my assessment of the dude in this instance...I respectfully disagree with your assessment of his level of belligerance. I think he went to the mic with the intention of causing a problem, not for the good of the issues, but for the sake of the cameras. I don't think he imagined in his wildest dreams it would go so far. Most of the people who were actually there that I have heard from felt he was being an ass for the sake of a stunt and not for the sake of any issue he felt strongly about. The crowd was on the side of the officers for the most part (even cheering them) until the point at which they started tasing...then the opinion of the crowd changed.

[dangerdyke]

yeah--again, too much pain for much now, but why did they go to #4 if the suspect did not go to a #3? that's not one level above? and i do not have the pain-level now to go into it, but i believe taser should be at a higher level. my biggest prob is taser as a reply to passive resistance. there are MANY cases linking tasers to death--and not enough evidence either way---i have my own situation as a realted bit of "evidence" and am not saying the lik i jsut mentioned is "proven" but i have more naunced/supported bits to say about all taht when i can....

[tenshuaozora]

"No one short of a taser-certified police officer can say that a taser was or was not warranted in that situation..."

Nonsense.

Anyone with any sense could clearly see that four police officers should be more than sufficient to arrest, detain and escort away one college student who was only nominally resisting arrest. Saying that you must be "a taser-certified police officer" to make that judgment is a logical fallacy, much like saying that because you did not suffer any ill effects, a Taser is harmless. There is a chance, however remote, that the Taser could have killed him and over a charge of resisting arrest, it would have done far more damage than one floppy, obnoxious attention whore. The police here were ill-trained, as is the case with many police departments across the country.

As to your above banter, you're reacting as equally emotionally as Jess, if not more. There is quite clearly indication from the video that both parties acted inappropriately, and the reaction from the rest of the country is predictable. The truth is he shouldn't have been such an ass, shouldn't have resisted arrest and shouldn't have been tasered because the cops should have been better trained. If that reality doesn't sit well with you, then you should do your part to make sure your fellow officers are trained better and use their discretion as their primary weapon.

And I am well within my rights to tell you how to do your job because it is the public's job to tell public servants how they will conduct themselves. If you don't understand/agree with that, you have no business being one in a democracy.