Dancing
In a couple of places, there have been threads / comments about dacning, getting dance partners, interactions between older males and "cute young things", etc. I'm going to comment here, and post likes elsewhere, so that I can get all my thoughts on this in one place.
1: Compliments.
A couple of people (purchasemonkey and corpsefairy come immediately to mind) have ( Read more... )
1: Compliments.
A couple of people (purchasemonkey and corpsefairy come immediately to mind) have ( Read more... )
But answering the question with the premise that the complimenter is someone I know, I'd still rather not be complimented on my appearance.
Frankly, I don't really care what I look like. I had nothing to do with it. I don't wear makeup, I don't do anything to my hear, and I wear what's comfortable when I'm not wearing a costume. When I do wear a costume, I'm showing off my skill at costuming, not my body. It's not terribly efficient to drag a costume around on a dress dummy with me, so I kinda have to wear it if I want to show it off.
A compliment on my looks by someone who knows me is especially insulting as anyone who knows me should know that I don't like those kinds of compliments. I'm quite vocal about that, I even have an entire category in my LJ devoted to things like that. Two, actually, I have a Me Manual and I have an Online Skeezballs tag that I use to show everyone else what *not* to do when meeting someone for the first time. So I can only assume that person is deliberately trying to antagonize me since I have specifically requested not to be complimented on my appearance. The first time someone does it, I don't defensive or worked up about it right then, but after I've had a dozen or so in one short span of time, I lose my temper and it's just too bad for the person who threw the final straw.
It goes back to the giver of the compliment being self-centered or being respectful. Respect is not doing what you think you're supposed to do blindly. Respect is treating someone how they want to be treated. If he knows me, then he knows I want to be complimented on my appearance.
As for it not mattering if a guy wants to have sex with me, this only shows how clearly you do not understand what it's like to be a female in this society. Of course it matters. Women are the pursued, whether we want to be or not. It gets damn tiring running around in circles with men running after you all the time. And that's not meant to imply bragging - I hold no illusions that I'm all that special either in looks or personality. It has very little to do with me as a person, it's simply because I'm female. I don't WANT to be complimented all the time, I dont' want to be hit on, I don't want to be pursued. I'm quite capable of doing my own pursuit. Mainly I just want people to leave me alone, forget that I'm female, and just get back to socializing like I'm a person, not a sex object.
Men, it appears, have a very different experience. I've been told by men how much they would love to trade places with females, to be pursued for a change, to have people compliment them on their appearance, to do nothing but sit back and let the emails flood their inbox. It might be ego-boosing for the first hour, but a lifetime of such treatment makes us extremely weary. I don't want to HAVE to wear sweats to get guys to leave me alone. I live in Florida, it's freakin' hot here. I want to wear shorts and a tank top so I don't get heat stroke and not be hit on by guys, just once. I want to be appreciated for my abilities and my personality - something I actually contributed to doing.
A compliment about my appearance is cheap. It holds no value. Telling me to sit back and enjoy it completely ignores all my lifetime of experience and it ignores my perogative to have my own likes and dislikes. I'm not telling you that you shouldn't enjoy compliments. Were I to give you one, it would be for your appearance since that's what apparently means something to you. But please don't tell me that what you like is also what I should like when you have not had any of the experiences I've had and can't possibly understand what it's like to be me.
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Should be:
"I don't do anything with my hair"
"Then he knows I don't want to be complimented on my appearance"
"might be ego boosting"
's what I get for typing right out of bed, I suppose.
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Not true. Make costumes for other people, people who do want to show off their bodies. Hell, if you're good at it, you can even charge them for the privilege of showing off your work for you. Win - win.
A compliment about my appearance is cheap. It holds no value.
That certainly can be true. But it is equally true about any compliment.
You can do a piss poor job making a dress, have totally flubbed what you were trying to accomplish, I can believe that, and I can compliment you on it anyway.
Now, that's called "lying to you", and I don't do that. But if I was going to do it about your body, I can equally do it about your clothes.
Now you (as you've gone to a lot of effort to show) refuse to assign worth to compliments on your looks. However, one of the reasons why you've had to go to that much effort is because you are an extreme outlier. So extrapolating from "how would joreth like to be treated" to "how should I treat most other people I know" strikes me as a bad idea. No?
Generally speaking, it takes a lot more time and effort to keep your body in shape, than it does to make a costume. And if someone's gone to the effort of keeping in shape (and yes, I'm speaking from personal experience here), or of doing their hair, or putting on makeup, or finding clothes that look good together, and look good on them, then the odds are high that they're going to appreciate hearing that.
No?
As for it not mattering if a guy wants to have sex with me, this only shows how clearly you do not understand what it's like to be a female in this society. Of course it matters. Women are the pursued, whether we want to be or not. It gets damn tiring running around in circles with men running after you all the time.
Yep, I have very little idea of what it's like never having to chase, simply having to have people drop themselves at my feet, beggin for attention.
Actually, that's not true. :-) See, I'm a massage therapist, and a damn good one. And I give "evil free samples" at Cons and Faires where I'm working, so I have people coming to me and wanting free samples, and then wanting more for free. And I have women come to me, and expect that because they're beautiful, I should therefore give them whatever they want. I have people constantly pushing at me for me to give them what they want, without them giving even the slightest thought to "what can I give him, that he would want, so that he'll give me what I want?" I know what it's like to be valued only for my hands (or only for my dance ability). So yes, I do know.
And I know how to say no, and stick to it. I know how to extract the "they want me", feed it to my ego, and let the rest go. You can learn to do the same. If you chose not to, understand that that is your choice.
just once. I want to be appreciated for my abilities and my personality - something I actually contributed to doing.
Do you pig out every day, and sit in front of a computer / TV / book all day, never doing anything physical? No? Then you have contributed something to your looks, too. Furthermore, how much are your abilities dependent upon your intelligence? Because you're about as responsible for your intelligence as you are for your looks. Maybe less.
Now, I believe you agree that you could be more responsible for your looks (do your hair, makeup, etc.). Personally, I believe that intelligence is far more important than looks, that smart and ugly beats dumb and beautiful (but that smart and beautiful beats both). But if genetics has given you a gift, and you chose to throw it away, that's simply not smart.
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I do. But my physical person is the most readily available, therefore some of my costumes actually belong to me. I do not chose to charge money for my costuming because I have another job that takes more of my time and attention, and one I like better than costuming. It's not win-win, there are a whole bunch of issues that come with making costumes for other people, but I won't get into the perils of costuming for others if you're not a costumer. That's a whole rant on its own.
That certainly can be true. But it is equally true about any compliment
It takes a lot more effort to personalize a compliment based upon the individual herself. Even if the compliment is bullshit, it at least took more effort than "ur hot".
how would joreth like to be treated" to "how should I treat most other people I know" strikes me as a bad idea. No?
Actually, no, the internet is filled with other women ranting about this very same issue. I'm not alone and it would behoove you to understand that women in this society often share some common experiences - one of which is the most annoying method of complimenting us on our appearance. Not everyone woman feels that way, but is it really so difficult for you to find out first before paying the compliment?
Generally speaking, it takes a lot more time and effort to keep your body in shape, than it does to make a costume. And if someone's gone to the effort of keeping in shape (and yes, I'm speaking from personal experience here), or of doing their hair, or putting on makeup, or finding clothes that look good together, and look good on them, then the odds are high that they're going to appreciate hearing that. No?
No, the odds are not high. See this picture I keep using? I'm in relatively good shape. This takes absolutely no effort at all. I eat junk food and don't work out. I just happen to have the genetics that say I will be thin with decent muscle tone. This is pretty common among the people I know too. What you don't seem to realize is that 1) many women put that amount of effort into themselves for them, not for you and 2) women get the compliments and the insults no matter what they do and after a while we get tired of hearing them. I suppose someone who never hears the compliments might value them more, but a lot of women hear them all the time, even when we specifically ask not to and that's just disrespectful.
Do you pig out every day, and sit in front of a computer / TV / book all day, never doing anything physical? No?
Yes, as I write this, I've been sitting on this couch all day long staring at my computer and I'm currently on my third slice of pizza. I'm not "throwing away" a gift, I'm quite aware of the luxury I have of not caring what I eat or how I excercize. On the flip side, these same genetics cursed me with low blood pressure, low iron and a protein deficiency that can't digest vegetable protein.
Unless I'm specifically dressed in a costume that requires hair and makeup, I do not do anything with my appearance. I don't get dressed unless I have to leave the house, and I pull on the first items my hand touches, whether it matches or not. I'm lucky if I remember to brush my hair. My appearance is just not important to me, but other things are, and if someone wants to pay me a compliment that I will respond well to, he should pay me a compliment that *I* want to hear, not one that *he* wants to hear.
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But please consider all I've written to come from the question "how will I act at a dance, Ren Faire, or SF Convention?" If that was already clear, great. If it wasn't, hopefully it is now.
It takes a lot more effort to personalize a compliment based upon the individual herself. Even if the compliment is bullshit, it at least took more effort than "ur hot".
Hmm, I get the feeling we're talking past each other here. Let's see if I can fix that:
I can say "you look great tonight", or "you look great in that" or "that looks great [on you]". All take the same effort.
I can say "I love that fabric" / "color" / "the bead work you did" / "the trim". None of those compliments, sincere or not, take much effort on my part. So I have no idea why you're claiming that a compliment for your outfit "takes more work" than a compliment for your looks. it took you more effort to make the outfit, than to achieve the looks. But complimenting them takes the same effort.
What am I missing?
Not everyone woman feels that way, but is it really so difficult for you to find out first before paying the compliment?
In general? Yes. What would you have me do, ask every woman I meet how she likes to be complimented? I can just see the conversation: I ask a new dance partner at Gaskells to dance with me. She says yes. We go out on the dance floor, and wait for the dance to start. She is wearing a lovely dress, that nicely shows off her figure. He hair is done up, and she has done a good job with her makeup. So I say "may I ask you what kind of compliments you like to receive?"
Um, no.
Now, if I meet someone, I compliment her on her looks, and she tells me she doesn't like getting compliments on her looks, I'm going to do my best to remember that (just as I try to remember how people like to be addressed). But am I going to quiz everyone I meet on how they like to be complimented? No.
I just happen to have the genetics that say I will be thin with decent muscle tone.
Congratulations. You've won the genetic lottery. If you're intelligent, too, then you've won it even more. You know how many people would like their kids to have your genetic advantages?
No, the odds are not high
And yes, the odds are high. Because most people don't have your genetic advantages, and have to work to get figures like yours (esp. if they're over 30). I know a few people like you (my dad is one of them). I know a hell of a lot more who would like to be like you, and a lot who only approach your shape because they work at it.
Telling those who do work to get that shape that their efforts aren't worth complimenting, just because you get it w/o effort, would be rather snobbish. No?
(It really pisses my off that LJ limits comments to 4300 characters. Esp. the part where I, the owner of the journal where the comment is going, am so limited.)
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The same compliment from two different people can be either slimy or sincere. I'm not sure how to clearly explain the difference to you. That's what we've been talking about: the slime. I'm sure we can both agree that it's icky and people shouldn't do it.
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Which, I hope you'll agree, is a bit different from "I don't want someone to compliment my appearance while staring at my breasts." (To take a common example of "how to give a sleazy 'compliment'.")
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What you don't seem to realize is that 1) many women put that amount of effort into themselves for them, not for you
No, I do realize it. And many costumers build beautiful costumes because they like looking at them, and couldn't care less what other people think. But I'm not going to refrain from complimenting a beautiful outfit just because the person wearing it might be one of those costumers.
2) women get the compliments and the insults no matter what they do and after a while we get tired of hearing them.
Some women get tired of hearing them. Others (and in my experience, a majority) do not.
If I had to lay money on it, I would bet that the number of women who put an effort into looking good, and would get pissed / hurt / cranky if they did not receive positive feedback about it, exceeds the number of women who don't like receiving compliments on their looks, and far exceeds the number of women who put effort into looking good, but don't want to hear a guy actually telling them that they look good. And once we limit the female population being considered to those women who are attending a social event where one is typically there to interact with members of the opposite sex (i.e. a dance) (which is where this all began), I feel even more confident about those odds.
Drawing back from the question "what do joreth and her friends want", and going with the question "how should Greg interact w/ the female population so as to have the highest Expectation of creating positive feelings", would you disagree with the previous paragraph?
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http://www.alovelinksplus.com/advice/double-your-dating-articles/do-women-really-like-compliments.htm - "Attractive women get compliments in various forms all the time. In fact, they're so used to getting compliments that it's what they expect. As a matter of fact, if you start talking to an attractive woman and say "Wow, you're really beautiful. I mean, you're like a goddess... are you a model or an actress?" etc. the most likely response you're going to get is her giving you the cold shoulder. Why? Because she got what she needed from you, and you showed her that you're just like every other guy out there that will worship her for her physical beauty. As a general rule, you always want to avoid being mentally slotted into the "average" and "like all the other guys" category at all cost. ... To summarize, women don't spend a lot of time fixing themselves up to get compliments, they do it to compete with and impress other women."
http://www.datingclass.com/dating/complimenting-women.shtml - "Let's say you see a woman with fantastic breasts. She might be dressed in a set of nipple-wrappers that lifts those jubblies so high you'd swear she could lower her head and wedge her own nose into the cleavage. It doesn't matter. She will be so used to men being so fixated on her breasts alone, that any comment on them will register about the same as saying, "Do you come here often?""
http://www.ehow.com/how_2908_compliment-woman-catches.html - "Think about commenting on actions over looks ... Commend a woman for her wit or intelligence ("Funny joke!" "Great idea!") rather than her beautiful breasts. She'll like the attention to something of substance. ... Consider asking her first if she takes compliments well. If she smiles encouragingly, tell her she's got a great smile; if she gives you a dirty look pretend you're in Maui and look the other way."
http://revver.com/video/589685/you-are-pretty-complimenting-women-do-it-right/ - "Complimentng women. The worst you can say is you are pretty. "
http://revver.com/video/435013/the-correct-way-to-compliment-women/ - "Many guys think that the best way to Pick up a woman is to walk up and give her a compliment. Unfortunately this does nothing to build attraction or establish high status"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2008/jul/21/fashion.askhadley - "men seem to think that the easiest way to a woman's heart (or whatever) is to chuck out a compliment or two about what she's wearing. But men! Take heed! Not all compliments are created equal! ... Don't say: "That dress makes you look pretty." "
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http://www.freespiritcentre.info/articles/21/1014_complimenting_women/print/ - "Yes, complimenting women (especially if they’re attractive) when you first meet them is verboten ... Never comment on a woman’s looks when you first meet her or on the first few dates. If you want to give a compliment, give it for something she doesn’t normally get noticed for."
http://www.nlp-seduction.co.uk/2006/10/how-do-you-compliment-women-how-as.html - "The big problem area is personal compliments on your appearance, taste or behaviour. ... A straight personal compliment made by a stranger can be experienced by the recipient as aggressive and offensive. It also demonstrates a lack of understanding and empathy"
http://datingmonk.com/?p=19 - "so don’t compliment on her looks ... Compliment her for her character and women will really appreciate that."
My point in posting all of this is not that I agree with everything said in every website, but to point out that ALL of them say DON'T COMPLIMENT A WOMAN ON HER LOOKS.
Clearly, I'm not in the minority opinion here.
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To answer your question about what is the safest, compliment a woman on something other than her appearance until you've gotten to know her well enough to accurately judge which category she's in.
If you compliment a woman who gets offended, you've produced a negative reaction by guessing wrong. If you don't compliment a woman who would like it, you've produced a neutral reaction by guessing wrong.
And regardless of which category she's in, complimenting her on something other than her looks will have the highest chance of producing a positive reaction. The safest method is to not talk about a woman's appearance.
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How often is too often? Once per evening?
Again, you are going rather far afield. I'm not interested in addressing the large question of "how should men and women interact?"
I'm looking at the very narrow question of "appropriate interactions at a dance."
"Hi Mary, you look great tonight. May I have this dance?"
or, while waiting for a dance to start
"That dress looks great on you. Where'd you get it?"
Are these reasonable and appropriate things to say to someone you sort of know at a dance?
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Second, it's not going far afield, "appropriate interactions at a dance" do not vary significantly from "how men and women should interact". Since most of these websites were written to give dating tips to men and a lot of them specifically addressed the situation of a nightclub or other place where men might pick up women, these are all appropriate to my point, which is that a LARGE NUMBER OF WOMEN DON'T WANT TO BE COMPLIMENTED ON THEIR LOOKS. This is not about what "Joreth and her friends want", this is about what women in our society want, whether they're my friends or online or at one of your dances.
As I've already said, it's safer to avoid complimenting a woman on her looks, no matter what the situation, unless you already know her well enough to know how she will take the compliment.
The safest method, if you absolutely must mention her appearance, is to compliment the outfit, not her body. This has been said several times by several people and by all the websites I listed. How many times and how many women have to repeat that before you hear it?
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