Religion also can enable one to get outside of oneself, to apprehend, even if for a little while, the largeness and mystery of the universe. We are finite beings; trusting in one's frail self seems limiting and even dangerous to me.
Because we are finite beings--even the most die-hard atheist agrees that far--we do not know everything. That's where some diverge. Over my lifetime, I've seen the limitations of scientific progress again and again. While rejoicing in the fascinating reaches of science, I'm also aware of how the outer limits have had to be redefined again and again.
We don't know, though some have glimmers, which has been defined as the religious impulse. Gnosis--eucatastrophe--(notice all the Greek roots, suggesting that these are old subjects) transcendance--all terms that try to get a grip on the ineffable.
Reasons for not having it - well, one of the standard ones is that religion is used as an excuse for a lot of bad things. But a) I'm not convinced that most of the bad things wouldn't happen anyway, with different excuses (never underestimate the human ability to come up with excuses!), and b) from a pragmatic/historical point of view, religion seems to be hardwired into us as a species; every culture has had some form of it. Some individuals can do without it, sure. Societies don't seem to be able to, based on existing data, so arguing that we shouldn't have it at all is kind of pointless.(1) The trick is developing a society that minimizes bad effects of religion and maximizes good effects.
...I do believe religion fills a psychologically important space for most people, but I don't buy the argument that we need it to tell us how to behave ethically. I don't think, if someone is inclined to commit a crime, they'll stop and think "oh, wouldn't like it, so I won't." Or not most of the time. The idea that religion serves as a
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'Based on existing data' - mind you, I'd be fascinated to see an experiment done on that
The problem with sociology experiments is that you can't create a computer model of what would happen if you did such-and-such like you can with the ocean. The only parallel to a computer model of a sociology experiment is a story, but then you get individual bias and how people think it would happen, or want it to. And for such an actual experiment...you need people to agree. (Or do you? *mwahaha*)
Ancient Greece (actually, the classical world in general) is a good example of a time and place where religion and moral standards = non-overlapping Venn diagrams.
Yeah...think about what those gods did.
The idea that religion serves as a significant deterrent to crime or other misbehaviour always strikes me as an argument coming from someone who who grew up in a culture that mixes up religions with standards of moral behaviour.Well, for background, he's Catholic. I'm going to agree with you here for the most part. I think for some people who
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(And my parents pushing for only Judaism doesn't make it easier even if it's not out loud most of the time.)
Eugh. I don't have that problem, but I don't talk about religion with my family at all. Especially my older brother, who is the "theists are foolishly deluded and my way is the One True Way" variety of atheist. I refuse to talk about religion with One True Way people, whatever their beliefs; you can't have a reasonable discussion with someone who refuses to recognize the legitimacy of other positions.
Yay for religion! :) Also, yay for cultures that allow this and don't try to squeeze everyone into the same cookie mold.
but I don't talk about religion with my family at all
Sometimes it's hard to avoid, since I tend to tell them what activities I have planned. (Not all, but a lot...y'know, that college transition phase where you're independent...kind of.) So when my mom says "you're going to Hillel tomorrow night, since you missed the last two weeks, yes?" And I'm like "actually, I'm going souling for Halloween" (and "hey, no I didn't -- I went the week before last!") I must explain my reasoning. (Without admitting to the Pagan element that souling has for me -- I can avoid that mainly because I'm going with a group of people who are not Pagan, and just out for the fun of it.) The problem is my parents believe in varying Ways of religion...for other people. But I'm glad the general culture accepts my belief mixture!
Spirituality, behavioural guidelines, societal unity are all good reasons for religion. But when secular humanists deride religion now and through history, claiming that it is the source of all human woe, and should be done away with altogether, my response - since I'm a bit of doubting Thomas myself - is that regardless of the VERACITY of a religious belief, I suspect great art, music, architecture, literature, even great science (many scientists, like Newton, were in fact looking for God or to figure out how God makes things go) - emerges out of religion. By creating for the divine, men/women reach for the heavens. If you look at the great art and literature of the past five hundred years in the Western world (never mind what went before), that religious sensibility is wound throughout it. The symbols, the characters, the great temptations and salvations of humanity
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Because we are finite beings--even the most die-hard atheist agrees that far--we do not know everything. That's where some diverge. Over my lifetime, I've seen the limitations of scientific progress again and again. While rejoicing in the fascinating reaches of science, I'm also aware of how the outer limits have had to be redefined again and again.
We don't know, though some have glimmers, which has been defined as the religious impulse. Gnosis--eucatastrophe--(notice all the Greek roots, suggesting that these are old subjects) transcendance--all terms that try to get a grip on the ineffable.
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...I do believe religion fills a psychologically important space for most people, but I don't buy the argument that we need it to tell us how to behave ethically. I don't think, if someone is inclined to commit a crime, they'll stop and think "oh, wouldn't like it, so I won't." Or not most of the time. The idea that religion serves as a ( ... )
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The problem with sociology experiments is that you can't create a computer model of what would happen if you did such-and-such like you can with the ocean. The only parallel to a computer model of a sociology experiment is a story, but then you get individual bias and how people think it would happen, or want it to. And for such an actual experiment...you need people to agree. (Or do you? *mwahaha*)
Ancient Greece (actually, the classical world in general) is a good example of a time and place where religion and moral standards = non-overlapping Venn diagrams.
Yeah...think about what those gods did.
The idea that religion serves as a significant deterrent to crime or other misbehaviour always strikes me as an argument coming from someone who who grew up in a culture that mixes up religions with standards of moral behaviour.Well, for background, he's Catholic. I'm going to agree with you here for the most part. I think for some people who ( ... )
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Eugh. I don't have that problem, but I don't talk about religion with my family at all. Especially my older brother, who is the "theists are foolishly deluded and my way is the One True Way" variety of atheist. I refuse to talk about religion with One True Way people, whatever their beliefs; you can't have a reasonable discussion with someone who refuses to recognize the legitimacy of other positions.
Yay for religion! :) Also, yay for cultures that allow this and don't try to squeeze everyone into the same cookie mold.
Reply
Sometimes it's hard to avoid, since I tend to tell them what activities I have planned. (Not all, but a lot...y'know, that college transition phase where you're independent...kind of.) So when my mom says "you're going to Hillel tomorrow night, since you missed the last two weeks, yes?" And I'm like "actually, I'm going souling for Halloween" (and "hey, no I didn't -- I went the week before last!") I must explain my reasoning. (Without admitting to the Pagan element that souling has for me -- I can avoid that mainly because I'm going with a group of people who are not Pagan, and just out for the fun of it.) The problem is my parents believe in varying Ways of religion...for other people. But I'm glad the general culture accepts my belief mixture!
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