"Expel," Loki murmured. He didn't know of that particular realm, but there were many possibilities there. It might not even be reachable by the bifrost, for example. He knew there were more places than the Aesir used the bifrost to go.
His eyebrows went up and he nodded appreciatively. "I would much like to hear more of your specific formulae, though I understand if it is too complex to be covered in such a short time. But a great discovery!" Converting matter from one state to another was no easy feat, depending upon the matter in question.
Elemental spirits were likely involved with the offensive magics; elements seemed to like those best since they were straightforward. It was precisely that straightforwardness that made the discipline less interesting to Loki.
"So the spirits are sentient? But willing to be used in that manner?" Spirits were something that the old Norse shaman had been quite interested in, though most of the time what they thought were spirits were some manifestation of the Aesir. Or hallucinations induced by any number of substances or practices. But Loki knew better than to make the assumption that it was always the case; he'd seen the occasional exceedingly strange thing in his time.
"If you like, I could write a summary for you," Rita offered. Though she wasn't particularly good at expressing herself in a positive way, she was delighted to meet someone interested in her work - and who might actually understand and appreciate the finer details of it!
"Yes, they're sentient. They've been cooperative so far, and it seems that their power is immense and far-reaching enough that they don't even notice when people borrow some. Of course, we'll need to do a lot of research to find out if there are any detrimental effects of spirit magic, whether it's to us, the spirits, or the environment." Raine had already highlighted a few of the dangers of a world dependent on mana. Rita would have to do her best to ensure that nothing went overlooked.
But as much as Rita loved to talk about her own research, that wasn't why she sought out this sort of conversation in the first place. "In any case, I'd like to hear about your research, too. You mentioned something about manipulating matter. What sort of applications does that have?" To begin with, 'manipulating matter' could mean a number of things, so she supposed she'd let Lingormr explain before her imagination wandered too far.
"I would appreciate it greatly," Loki said, with an eager smile. "Please, when you have time. I'll await it with much anticipation."
Loki then nodded. "And I can only imagine so. Inventing an entirely new sort of magic... the implications are rather astounding. I suppose caution is to be advised." It was a sort of caution that he personally found impossible to exercise.
He considered for a moment, what he ought to say as opposed to what he could say. With the identity that he'd been trying to establish for himself, he probably already seemed far too knowledgeable about the sciences, though hopefully that would be excused with the same sort of hand waving that went into the explanation of aliens. And when it came to discussing theory with someone of similar mind and the knowledge to appreciate his work, he didn't want to be cautious.
Really, he doubted that Rita would run around their prison, screaming that the so-called Viking certainly knew a bit too much about quantum mechanics to be believable. Though he could always claim that subatomic particles made for some good pillaging if you were willing to put in the effort.
To Hel with it.
He leaned forward in his armchair. "The magics I work with are all firmly based in the sciences. Because it is necessary to fully understand the physical laws that govern the workings of matter and energy, in order to best decide how to manipulate those laws. Or, as necessary, break them. The ability to do so is based upon the will and internal power of the practitioner, though certain artifacts can augment that." He paused for a moment, considering what point would be best made next. Rita had mentioned manipulating matter... "As an example, if I wished to... goodness, I don't know. Turn this chair into honey, for whatever strange reason that struck me as a good idea."
...most likely because it would be funny depending upon who was sitting in it at the time.
"I would need to know the physical properties of the honey I wished the chair to become, after which I could construct an appropriate rune of command that would govern the necessary processes, such as breaking bonds, rearranging molecules, and if necessary tearing atoms to bits. And then with my will and magic, I would instruct reality to do just that. And reality had damn well better obey." He grinned.
"And after that, it really just becomes a question of research, strength, and imagination."
Rita watched Lingormr attentively as he began his explanation, her notebook open with a pen hovering over it. His account started out normal enough, but at the mention of breaking physical laws, it quickly became clear that what he was describing was unlike any magic system Rita knew of. Immediately, a number of questions formed in her mind, but she managed to stay quiet as he continued, jotting down the occasional note for herself.
The wood and cloth that composed an armchair didn't share a lot of properties with honey. For one to become the other... it was difficult for Rita to visualize how it could be done. "So, more than just changing the state or shape of matter... you can alter its very composition? To any substance you understand well enough?"
There was a part of that that was a little disturbing, though Rita quickly dismissed the feeling. Anyone could just as easily say the same about magic that could summon meteors or conjure tidal waves.
"By a rune of command, do you mean written runes, or something else?" Rita's magic used formulas, and Heraldry used symbols, so it wouldn't be strange if Lingormr used something similar. At the same time, though, it was possible to utilize a formula without writing it down, depending on how it was being used.
Loki nodded, eyes bright. "The more closely two things are related, the easier it is to do such a thing. But the limits are dictated entirely by the strength of will and the magical resources of the practitioner. So most would not be able to do more perhaps than change the arrangement of atoms... altering a thing's shape. Or perhaps transmute one substance to another if they are similar enough, such as gold and mercury." It was only the difference of a single proton, after all.
Which meant that most humans that practiced magic could barely scratch their own noses, so to speak. But Loki was a god, and he could tear holes in the fabric of reality if he felt the need. Not that he'd be telling Rita anything approaching that much.
"Written runes are used most often. Ritualistically, in many cases, though new ones can be created for specific purposes by those knowledgeable enough. But... I have reason to think they may not be necessary. My research has indicated that their purpose may simply be to focus and direct, rather than having any sort of mystical power of their own. The implications of that are quite... breathtaking."
It was easier to transform an object into a similar object than a dissimilar one. That made sense. It also meant that the average mage in Lingormr's world was limited in their capabilities. And for him to talk casually about turning chairs into honey, it probably indicated that he considered himself well above average in his ability.
Well, that was fine. Rita was reasonably sure that she was the most powerful and knowledgeable mage in her world. Acknowledging one's own ability wasn't a matter of arrogance; it was a matter of fact.
It looked like Rita had been on the right track in her way of thinking about the runes. "Sounds similar to the formulas I use, then. Most spell formulas can be used without being written down, so long as the user recalls and understands them thoroughly. Heraldry, on the other hand, needs a written symbol in some form." That had been both an interesting and challenging point. In the end, Rita had created talismans containing symbols to allow herself to use heraldry at her convenience. Perhaps if she had the time, she could look through her copies of Leon's notes to see if she could learn more spells from it...
In any case, she had more questions about Lingormr's magic. There was something else he mentioned that stuck out to her. "I think I understand the basics now... but when you mentioned manipulating biological matter, what sort of things do you do with that?" Again, she envisioned a number of possibilities, ranging from turning dogs into cats, to healing wounds, to committing the most bizarre murders imaginable. Some of those thoughts seemed ridiculous, but then again, so did the chairs-into-honey thing.
Loki nodded. "It's perhaps best to think of runes as shortcuts for mathematical formulae. I've known many a practitioner of the art that didn't understand the principles behind them, though they are still usable in that way. It just certainly would limit one's ability to create new command runes."
He hummed idly to himself. "I find it interesting that magic could actually require something like a symbol, rather than the need for it stemming from a lack of strength or study." He tapped his pen on his lips, considering the uses and detriments. "I suppose it makes sense. If nothing else, in a dimension where the physical laws differ, that would have an affect on what sort of magics one might be able to use."
He was momentarily distracted by a cat walking toward his chair, its tail held at a jaunty angle. He offered the little creature his fingers to sniff, then snorted quietly when it jumped onto the arm of the chair.
He'd always been partial to cats.
"Yes. Biological matter. Most are interested in the healing applications. Which are important, I have little doubt. But I was curious about the possibilities for altering one's appearance without having to rely on an illusion. It's been an interesting avenue of investigation, but the body is full of all sorts of fiddly bits that have to be right or the results are... unpleasant." Loki laughed. "And as you can imagine, a great deal of caution is called for since it wouldn't do for anyone to be hurt. One interesting result has been that it's much easier to affect yourself than someone else, which I suppose should make sense. Local fields are simpler to manipulate, and you're certainly more well acquainted with the contents of your own skin than anyone else's."
He shook his head, lips taking on a wry twist. "But at this stage, it's still all refining the calculations and limited, very cautious experiments. I'm quite hampered by my own capabilities, and the only other person I've found interested in that particular subject was a... very bad man."
Mostly, he just didn't want Rita to get too clear a grasp of his capabilities, even though he desperately wanted to discuss the entire range of topics. Better to lead her to think that he was all theory and little application, then. Not that she would be able to tell the difference one way or the other in this place. Or at least he hoped not.
Though Rita listened with great interest, her eyes were distracted by the cat that came between them. There was the slightest hint of disappointment in her face when it opted to join Lingormr rather than herself.
Never mind the cat. Focus on the topic. Rita looked back up to Lingormr's face, her expression mostly neutral, though she watched with a hint of skepticism at his attitude.
The only other interested person he knew was a 'very bad man'? Rita had to give a small snort to that. "Wouldn't surprise me, considering the possible applications." Off the top of her head, she could picture it being used for deception, spying, assassination, seduction... Rita could think of one old man who'd go to town if he had access to an ability like that. Too bad even the greatest minds in the world hadn't come up with a magical cure for an obnoxious personality.
But on that note, it really was a suspicious field for someone to take so much interest in. Rita had to wonder just what Lingormr wanted to do with it. She watched the man with an appraising look as she considered asking, but she soon decided against it. If it led to an ethics debate, she could miss out on useful information. Best to leave that sort of thing for another time.
"You said before that the talent for magic was something people are born with on your world. About how common is it? Is it a predictably inherited trait?"
He nodded slowly as he stroked the cat's head, though he was watching Rita far more carefully than his attitude implied. "It is perhaps a dangerous line of research because it can easily welcome abuse by those that are... morally flexible. But I also firmly believe that no question ought remain unanswered." He sighed. "I probably should not have mentioned it at all, but I do try to be honest. I sought out the other... practitioner because I wished to have a conversation similar to what we're having now - a collegiate exchange between scholars. What I found forced me to deal with him... permanently." He sighed, allowing his expression to become troubled.
All of it a strange fabrication of lie and truth delivered as a whole truth; it was in line with the character that he was attempting to build.
"The talent for magics is... not terribly common. Most people with any talent at all become shaman. Which is to say that they eschew research in favor of spiritualism. But most talents are quite weak as well. Strong talents are quite rare." He paused for a moment, thinking about his fake, lying parents, and what little he knew of his real father. With great honesty, he could say, "It is most unpredictable trait."
Rita narrowed her eyes when Lingormr alluded to having killed the other scholar. It wasn't necessarily a shock, as Rita had killed a few people herself, and she wouldn't hesitate to take down someone who misused blastia. Though Rita still had to wonder about Lingormr's intentions in choosing such a field, it looked like he had some concerns about ethics... though it remained to be seen just how closely his ideas resembled Rita's.
But then he addressed her question, and the mage returned to taking notes and nodding to show she was following. An unpredictable trait... though Rita had that possibility in her mind when she asked her question, it was unlike any other system of magic she was familiar with.
"That's interesting. While anyone in my world can use magic if they study it, there are some people with unique magic-related traits. They're all hereditary, though. You wouldn't find them springing up in people at random." So how did Lingormr and his people acquire their talents? Recessive traits? Mutations? Environmental influences? It was an interesting question.
As it turned out, she didn't get a chance to pursue that line of thinking. The intercom sounded, informing everyone of the shift change.
"Looks like we're out of time," she observed with a small sigh. As she rose to her feet, Rita regarded Lingormr with a rare amicable expression. "Well, this was productive. If you don't mind, I'd like to talk again in the future. Maybe after we've both had a chance to collect more information."
Loki nodded. "It's possible that there's some heredity involved. There are a few families that have produced more than their fair share of shaman, though the question is always if they've actually got talent or if they're more in it for the spiritual side of things." He shrugged. "Though since being a scholar isn't a favored pursuit, it's difficult to know how things really are distributed. But it does seem that stronger talents seem to be... rather wild. I honestly haven't looked into that particular side of things over much, since it never really occurred to me that there might be a pattern. And I was rather caught up in my own personal interests." He smiled sheepishly.
Loki rose as well, giving the cat one last pat. He bowed politely to Rita. "I greatly enjoyed speaking with you. And I would like it if we could do so again some time soon. It's a relief and a pleasure to speak with another scholar. And I do look forward to seeing some of your equations."
His eyebrows went up and he nodded appreciatively. "I would much like to hear more of your specific formulae, though I understand if it is too complex to be covered in such a short time. But a great discovery!" Converting matter from one state to another was no easy feat, depending upon the matter in question.
Elemental spirits were likely involved with the offensive magics; elements seemed to like those best since they were straightforward. It was precisely that straightforwardness that made the discipline less interesting to Loki.
"So the spirits are sentient? But willing to be used in that manner?" Spirits were something that the old Norse shaman had been quite interested in, though most of the time what they thought were spirits were some manifestation of the Aesir. Or hallucinations induced by any number of substances or practices. But Loki knew better than to make the assumption that it was always the case; he'd seen the occasional exceedingly strange thing in his time.
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"Yes, they're sentient. They've been cooperative so far, and it seems that their power is immense and far-reaching enough that they don't even notice when people borrow some. Of course, we'll need to do a lot of research to find out if there are any detrimental effects of spirit magic, whether it's to us, the spirits, or the environment." Raine had already highlighted a few of the dangers of a world dependent on mana. Rita would have to do her best to ensure that nothing went overlooked.
But as much as Rita loved to talk about her own research, that wasn't why she sought out this sort of conversation in the first place. "In any case, I'd like to hear about your research, too. You mentioned something about manipulating matter. What sort of applications does that have?" To begin with, 'manipulating matter' could mean a number of things, so she supposed she'd let Lingormr explain before her imagination wandered too far.
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Loki then nodded. "And I can only imagine so. Inventing an entirely new sort of magic... the implications are rather astounding. I suppose caution is to be advised." It was a sort of caution that he personally found impossible to exercise.
He considered for a moment, what he ought to say as opposed to what he could say. With the identity that he'd been trying to establish for himself, he probably already seemed far too knowledgeable about the sciences, though hopefully that would be excused with the same sort of hand waving that went into the explanation of aliens. And when it came to discussing theory with someone of similar mind and the knowledge to appreciate his work, he didn't want to be cautious.
Really, he doubted that Rita would run around their prison, screaming that the so-called Viking certainly knew a bit too much about quantum mechanics to be believable. Though he could always claim that subatomic particles made for some good pillaging if you were willing to put in the effort.
To Hel with it.
He leaned forward in his armchair. "The magics I work with are all firmly based in the sciences. Because it is necessary to fully understand the physical laws that govern the workings of matter and energy, in order to best decide how to manipulate those laws. Or, as necessary, break them. The ability to do so is based upon the will and internal power of the practitioner, though certain artifacts can augment that." He paused for a moment, considering what point would be best made next. Rita had mentioned manipulating matter... "As an example, if I wished to... goodness, I don't know. Turn this chair into honey, for whatever strange reason that struck me as a good idea."
...most likely because it would be funny depending upon who was sitting in it at the time.
"I would need to know the physical properties of the honey I wished the chair to become, after which I could construct an appropriate rune of command that would govern the necessary processes, such as breaking bonds, rearranging molecules, and if necessary tearing atoms to bits. And then with my will and magic, I would instruct reality to do just that. And reality had damn well better obey." He grinned.
"And after that, it really just becomes a question of research, strength, and imagination."
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The wood and cloth that composed an armchair didn't share a lot of properties with honey. For one to become the other... it was difficult for Rita to visualize how it could be done. "So, more than just changing the state or shape of matter... you can alter its very composition? To any substance you understand well enough?"
There was a part of that that was a little disturbing, though Rita quickly dismissed the feeling. Anyone could just as easily say the same about magic that could summon meteors or conjure tidal waves.
"By a rune of command, do you mean written runes, or something else?" Rita's magic used formulas, and Heraldry used symbols, so it wouldn't be strange if Lingormr used something similar. At the same time, though, it was possible to utilize a formula without writing it down, depending on how it was being used.
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Which meant that most humans that practiced magic could barely scratch their own noses, so to speak. But Loki was a god, and he could tear holes in the fabric of reality if he felt the need. Not that he'd be telling Rita anything approaching that much.
"Written runes are used most often. Ritualistically, in many cases, though new ones can be created for specific purposes by those knowledgeable enough. But... I have reason to think they may not be necessary. My research has indicated that their purpose may simply be to focus and direct, rather than having any sort of mystical power of their own. The implications of that are quite... breathtaking."
It wasn't so much breathtaking as... liberating.
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Well, that was fine. Rita was reasonably sure that she was the most powerful and knowledgeable mage in her world. Acknowledging one's own ability wasn't a matter of arrogance; it was a matter of fact.
It looked like Rita had been on the right track in her way of thinking about the runes. "Sounds similar to the formulas I use, then. Most spell formulas can be used without being written down, so long as the user recalls and understands them thoroughly. Heraldry, on the other hand, needs a written symbol in some form." That had been both an interesting and challenging point. In the end, Rita had created talismans containing symbols to allow herself to use heraldry at her convenience. Perhaps if she had the time, she could look through her copies of Leon's notes to see if she could learn more spells from it...
In any case, she had more questions about Lingormr's magic. There was something else he mentioned that stuck out to her. "I think I understand the basics now... but when you mentioned manipulating biological matter, what sort of things do you do with that?" Again, she envisioned a number of possibilities, ranging from turning dogs into cats, to healing wounds, to committing the most bizarre murders imaginable. Some of those thoughts seemed ridiculous, but then again, so did the chairs-into-honey thing.
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He hummed idly to himself. "I find it interesting that magic could actually require something like a symbol, rather than the need for it stemming from a lack of strength or study." He tapped his pen on his lips, considering the uses and detriments. "I suppose it makes sense. If nothing else, in a dimension where the physical laws differ, that would have an affect on what sort of magics one might be able to use."
He was momentarily distracted by a cat walking toward his chair, its tail held at a jaunty angle. He offered the little creature his fingers to sniff, then snorted quietly when it jumped onto the arm of the chair.
He'd always been partial to cats.
"Yes. Biological matter. Most are interested in the healing applications. Which are important, I have little doubt. But I was curious about the possibilities for altering one's appearance without having to rely on an illusion. It's been an interesting avenue of investigation, but the body is full of all sorts of fiddly bits that have to be right or the results are... unpleasant." Loki laughed. "And as you can imagine, a great deal of caution is called for since it wouldn't do for anyone to be hurt. One interesting result has been that it's much easier to affect yourself than someone else, which I suppose should make sense. Local fields are simpler to manipulate, and you're certainly more well acquainted with the contents of your own skin than anyone else's."
He shook his head, lips taking on a wry twist. "But at this stage, it's still all refining the calculations and limited, very cautious experiments. I'm quite hampered by my own capabilities, and the only other person I've found interested in that particular subject was a... very bad man."
Mostly, he just didn't want Rita to get too clear a grasp of his capabilities, even though he desperately wanted to discuss the entire range of topics. Better to lead her to think that he was all theory and little application, then. Not that she would be able to tell the difference one way or the other in this place. Or at least he hoped not.
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Never mind the cat. Focus on the topic. Rita looked back up to Lingormr's face, her expression mostly neutral, though she watched with a hint of skepticism at his attitude.
The only other interested person he knew was a 'very bad man'? Rita had to give a small snort to that. "Wouldn't surprise me, considering the possible applications." Off the top of her head, she could picture it being used for deception, spying, assassination, seduction... Rita could think of one old man who'd go to town if he had access to an ability like that. Too bad even the greatest minds in the world hadn't come up with a magical cure for an obnoxious personality.
But on that note, it really was a suspicious field for someone to take so much interest in. Rita had to wonder just what Lingormr wanted to do with it. She watched the man with an appraising look as she considered asking, but she soon decided against it. If it led to an ethics debate, she could miss out on useful information. Best to leave that sort of thing for another time.
"You said before that the talent for magic was something people are born with on your world. About how common is it? Is it a predictably inherited trait?"
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All of it a strange fabrication of lie and truth delivered as a whole truth; it was in line with the character that he was attempting to build.
"The talent for magics is... not terribly common. Most people with any talent at all become shaman. Which is to say that they eschew research in favor of spiritualism. But most talents are quite weak as well. Strong talents are quite rare." He paused for a moment, thinking about his fake, lying parents, and what little he knew of his real father. With great honesty, he could say, "It is most unpredictable trait."
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But then he addressed her question, and the mage returned to taking notes and nodding to show she was following. An unpredictable trait... though Rita had that possibility in her mind when she asked her question, it was unlike any other system of magic she was familiar with.
"That's interesting. While anyone in my world can use magic if they study it, there are some people with unique magic-related traits. They're all hereditary, though. You wouldn't find them springing up in people at random." So how did Lingormr and his people acquire their talents? Recessive traits? Mutations? Environmental influences? It was an interesting question.
As it turned out, she didn't get a chance to pursue that line of thinking. The intercom sounded, informing everyone of the shift change.
"Looks like we're out of time," she observed with a small sigh. As she rose to her feet, Rita regarded Lingormr with a rare amicable expression. "Well, this was productive. If you don't mind, I'd like to talk again in the future. Maybe after we've both had a chance to collect more information."
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Loki rose as well, giving the cat one last pat. He bowed politely to Rita. "I greatly enjoyed speaking with you. And I would like it if we could do so again some time soon. It's a relief and a pleasure to speak with another scholar. And I do look forward to seeing some of your equations."
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