Question

[damelola]

For those of you who will continue to watch House next season:

WHY?

This is not intended as an attack, I swear.  You know I don't pick fights with my friends (random trolls and evil people on the other hand...).  But how are you justifying it to yourselves?  Is it just a case of 'I've started so I have to finish'?  I mean, I know some of y'all would

Comments

[flippet]

Well, I think I've sort of come to the end, and it's mainly character assassination. And strangely, Cuddy's more than House's, even though I've never watched 'for' Cuddy. But I am sensitive to how she treats my boy, and when that started changing inexplicably, I started standing back. I wanted to give the writers time to straighten things out - I'm well aware that with anything literary, and especially with a 'mystery' bent, things aren't always what they seem, but will be explained later. I was waiting for the explanation. But the explanation seems to be 'nope, she's really like that, and what's the problem?'

Their view has become so widely divergent from mine that I can't reconcile them anymore.

As for misogyny...I don't see that like others do, I know. But then, I dont see 'staying home with the kids' as inherently anti-feministic either. I'm happy enough with many traditionally female roles...which is only to say that I don't have that knee-jerk reaction to these things, because they don't bother me, and I've never had a problem with them. You could call it a kind of blindness - I often don't even see it, or if I do, it just doesn't rile me, because I am not offended by ... sorry, lost my words ... I dunno, the idea of embodying traditional female roles. (I'm missing some nuance there, but I hope you understand.)

As to questioning misogyny on the show - to me, that's kind of like questioning violence and murder on Dexter. The character's a serial killer. It shouldn't surprise you to see murder and death abound on that show.

[damelola]

Well, to quote Cameron "Nice try, but you're a misanthrope, not a misogynist", re: House. He was quite capable of treating Stacy with love and respect. He has a healthy enough relationship with his mother. He never seemed to 'hate' women before, even though he mocked or made cruel remarks, there was always an underlying respect and curiosity (e.g. with Amber).

I'm all for House hating people. I'm not okay with him hating one group more because of which genitals they happen to have. I expect scathing comments and a sarcastic world view. I don't expect women in this show who have been strong and vibrant to be relegated to replaceable actor units. (Because Lisa needs a pay cut but god forbid RSL make any less from a job he sneers at, right? Who's done more work in terms of screentime in the past year? And we're supposed to write this snub off as coincidence?)

But the show itself is treating women as objects. Strippers and hookers and nurses as sex toys, oh my! Throwing 13 across a room? Yeah, she hit Chase first, but his response was disproportionate and a direct result of him exerting his physicality over her. Cuddy being slammed into a wall and other spoilery violations? Not fucking okay.

And I'd have been fine if the show had Cameron quit to have babies once she got married, or if Cuddy had decided to go part-time to spend more time with Rachel. Feminism is about choice - women should be free to do those things, but not compelled to.

I was very blind to these issues until the past couple of years, I must confess. Now that I've had my eyes open, I don't want to live in a world where the most popular show in the world (as was) is telling people that these attitudes are acceptable.

[spoggly]

i might be cynical, but to me it strongly recalls the "woman in the refrigerator" syndrome common in comics - the majority of the women, and the vast majority of their "reasons" to be in the show or plotlines, revolved around giving motivation to the male characters, mainly house

quite a lot of it has to do with house being the main character, and that alone is just because, hey, title character vs. other characters. but when it's basically every single character, and every single motivation?

[ohbilliejean]

have i told you lately that i love you

[spoggly]

[flippet]

where the most popular show in the world (as was) is telling people that these attitudes are acceptable

Well, and here's where I differ on that. I don't necessarily think that the show is saying it's acceptable, as saying that some of these characters may hold those views. Showing does not automatically equal condoning.

And no, the show isn't necessarily putting those attitudes down, either - but must everything be a moral lesson? I can remember growing up in a fundamental, denominational school (so, the prevailing belief is in a literal 6-day creation, etc), and we would occasionally reference science sources that would talk about 'six million years ago' yadda yadda, and I can remember my teachers falling over themselves to announce 'but children, you know that's not true, right?' And I remember being annoyed as fuck, because - yes, I know - I'm capable of seeing and hearing something that I don't believe in, without suddenly becoming contaminated and an automatic heathen. And so I kind of see it that way - I don't see the need for the show to go around saying, 'but viewers, you know that that's a shitty way to treat women, right?' Yes, most people don't go around purchasing sex from professionals. House does. I don't think it's honest to the show to suddenly have him going, 'gee, I've never thought about the hardships that these girls go through, and that they might not want to be doing this, but just need to pay the bills'.

As to Chase throwing Thirteen around - I guess I didn't see his reaction as disproportionate - she did hit him first, and she meant business - a 'please stop' wouldn't have cut it. And Chase looked fairly appropriately horrified at what it took to subdue her. I certainly didn't see it as misogyny, and I didn't look at it like - well, okay then, that's a good thing to do, everyone should! Of course not.

Because Lisa needs a pay cut but god forbid RSL make any less from a job he sneers at, right?

I don't think it's about the pay cut. I think the pay cut was the final insult, and intended to be insulting.

I *truly* think it's about her politics, her MoveOn ad, etc. And that gets into a whole 'nother level of misogyny.

Regardless, I separate fiction from whatever reality goes on behind the scenes. I haven't heard of b-t-s misogyny before now (and no, letting someone go because of a creative decision is not automatically misogynistic if the actor happens to be female).

So yeah - if that's what's happening to Lisa - I'm pretty determined to boycott Fox entirely.

[damelola]

I think House of old was good at puncturing and deflating those views. House mocking clinic patients for naive views, or teaching 'lessons' through the POTW. Now it seems like an endless fugue of 'let's see how fucked up House can get and who cares about the other characters? Oh, except Taub who nobody likes! Let's make it the House and Taub show where they are fuck-ups who've surrendered all redeeming qualities).

I wasn't one of those (as you know) who thought that Cuddy could cure House with her magic vagina. I do think the character is capable of more than the state he finds himself in now, and finale spoilers really push him to the point of irredeemable. The glory of House that I used to watch was that he was an asshole in many ways, but he had something about him that was right or interesting. Now he's just an asshole. He's not even 'saving' his patients lately.

I think for smart and engaged viewers like us, that's fine and we can make the distinction. But if politics in the past century has taught us anything it's that most people can't make that distinction and just grab for the McNuggets (to quote our lovely Josh). House is cool because he does drugs and bangs hookers? Cool. Never mind that the show is actually about how miserable that makes him. Well, it used to be. Now it's more torture porn about just how fucked up he can get.

It's just... compare this to The Good Wife, or even shows I don't particularly like or watch like Criminal Minds -- they can show the worst elements of humanity without treating women the way this show has been on and off screen.

It's misogynistic to offer Lisa a paycut and not RSL. It just is. No one can argue she doesn't pull her weight and he does, so what else can it be based on? If it's because of attachment to feminist causes then that's still misogynistic. It might not be intentional even, but that doesn't excuse it. Maybe it's FOX overlords more to blame, but if this shit doesn't get called out, it carries on -- as that Roseanne article in NYmag showed just this week.

I don't know that letting either J-Mo or Lisa go is a purely creative decision, but in context it definitely looks worse. We won't ever know all the facts of it, but I don't recall any chatter of letting Jesse go instead of her, or saying 'ah let RSL piss off to Broadway then, he's out of contract anyway'.

I'm worried this sounds angrier than I mean it to, but I know you know I still like YOU. It's just the debate, man ;)

[flippet]

I don't know that letting either J-Mo or Lisa go is a purely creative decision, but in context it definitely looks worse

Oh no, I don't think that letting Lisa go is a creative decision. I think it's a personal attack with politics behind it, and misogyny fueling the politics.

I think that JMo was more for creative/possible penny-pinching reasons than because she's a female and they hate her.

It's misogynistic to offer Lisa a paycut and not RSL. It just is. No one can argue she doesn't pull her weight and he does, so what else can it be based on?

I'm sure they base negotiations on tons of stuff that we'd never think of, big and small, important (or self-important) or not. It's like basing a professor's teaching pay based on their publications - but maybe they're a shit teacher. Meanwhile, the good teacher is too busy teaching to publish - so their paycheck suffers.

If it's because of attachment to feminist causes then that's still misogynistic

No, I agree. Absolutely. But in a slightly roundabout way, if that makes sense. It's the politics first (which happen to be misogynistic) rather than direct and personal misogyny. Although it might be worse on her because she's also a girl and outspoken about these views. If it had been one of the guys being *exactly* as outspoken, I'm not sure the consequences would have been quite as dire - though I'm sure 'notes' would still have been passed. You don't 'dis' your employer's medieval politics without a fight.

Never mind that the show is actually about how miserable that makes him. Well, it used to be. Now it's more torture porn about just how fucked up he can get.

Well, and like rosie said, YMMV on this one. So many of the comments I heard after Out of the Chute was how horrible it was to women. But what I think many of them really meant was, 'I don't like that this episode is a huge F U from House to Cuddy'. Because they put themselves in Cuddy's place. And if they were Cuddy, it would a) hurt, and b) be insulting. But hi - that's kind of the whole idea. House is a jerk who *would* do that. And I thought it was quite clear that he was still miserable - even more than he'd been before. He only *looked* like he was partying.

I think House of old was good at puncturing and deflating those views.

It used to be better at it, this is true.

I'd blame some of it on writers phoning it in. But I also wouldn't be surprised if they got network 'notes' as well, no matter how DS denies it. Nets always think they know better than creatives about what, exactly, should go into their shows, and what the audiences want. Sports Night laugh track, anyone? I'm sure it's deadly difficult to keep a vision and original integrity in your show, especially once it's successful enough that the nets think they should take all the credit, and dictate what comes next.

I think for smart and engaged viewers like us, that's fine and we can make the distinction. But if politics in the past century has taught us anything it's that most people can't make that distinction

I mentioned on this tack below, but - then we should program for the lowest/simplest common denominator? Johnny can't figure it out, so let's only make programming that lays everything out for him so he never has to think?

[spoggly]

exactly - it's the difference between a sympathetic protagonist, which House originally was not supposed to really be, and a titular/p.o.v. character whose actions we may understand but not sympathize or agree with, and which the show does not endorse with the rest of its narrative

and House was definitely moving from one to the other, even before I stopped watching.

[lissie_pissie]

I've had this entry open in a tab and now I finally have time to go through it. Just wanted to jump in and say I wasn't bothered by the Chase/Thirteen fight. Quite the opposite, it was refreshing for me to see a woman that didn't back down or run away scared of the physical strength of a man. She started it, and she seems like the type of honest person who would want to be held accountable for her actions. She wasn't babied, she was treated like an equal, isn't that what people are fighting for?