To say that 'cunt' is inherently wrong is to imply that there is something inherently wrong with my genitalia. What else should I call it? My vag? Being sensitive to the feelings of others does not mean eliminating all slang terms for the vagina and never referring to it as a twat, muffin, pussy, or cunt in informal, private dialogue, literature, or art. I am all for women reclaiming the word cunt for personal use to refer in a loving and/or empowering way to vaginas.
However, I do think it is offensive to call someone a cunt as a slur. When used on a man it has the implication that to be associated with being like a vagina should offend them/the vagina is offensive (same reasoning as above), and to call it to a woman has both this connotation and the effect of demeaning her by equating her entire being with her vagina.
As for whether or not it's different in the UK, no, not really. I am aware of how it is used there and just because it is more socially acceptable doesn't make it different. I have recently been very conscious that American usage of the word 'dick' in the same way (like, 'oh he was being a dick') is also offensive and as such have been trying to stop using the term.
really? I haven't ever seen/hear of men getting really REALLY angry about the word "dick" being used like "cunt" might be by a woman. whereas, women HATE the c word.
I haven't ever seen/ heard of men getting really angry about women using the word "dick" the way that some men use "cunt"... whereas, women hate the c word.
There is definitely more of a social taboo against using the word 'cunt' than the word 'dick', and I think part of that taboo is cultural and part of it is historical; women have been historically the disenfranchised group and are more often victims of sexism or gender-specific violence.
However, if you examine why it is wrong to call people cunts, I think it also applies to calling people dicks. That is not to say that they are equally offensive in all areas of the world nor to imply that cunt is not a more offensive word most of the time, but I do think they are both - to a degree - offensive. Sort of how slurs against white people are offensive but not to the same degree as slurs against minorities are...But both are wrong, because you shouldn't slur anyone because of their racial identity.
I like the word cunt. XD (not as a slur, but as a reclaimed word to refer to my vagina)
I am starting to like it too. I just started reading a really steamy bodice ripping novel, and the way this author uses it is tasteful.. and I guess I never felt the negative association with the word, so.. :shrugs:
<---like thiscyranothe2ndDecember 17 2010, 05:53:37 UTC
However, I do think it is offensive to call someone a cunt as a slur.
Ryan and I were talking about this because I used the word in ONTD_politics and someone got offended and Ryan says that saying, "You are a fabulous cunt" (the way some people say 'bitch' but mean something nice by it) it different from saying "You're a stupid cunt." Which I agree with and it is a consciousness raiser to have someone point it out (even though a part of me *hates* all the derailing and political correctness and I just want to throw up my hands and cite etymology until I'm blue. But I suspect this may have a lot to do with me not wanting to be wrong, too. *g*).
IDK, I'm uncomfortable with it in a sexual context even, because it seems like a "dirty" word, whereas "pussy" doesn't...? IDEK why that is. And I've always thought of a "twat" as a ridiculous person, not a piece of female genitalia, even though I know that's where it comes from.
I've never thought of the connection to "dick" but you're right, it's just as derogatory (though not as inflammatory, I think, because of the power differential and because female parts seem to always = bad while male parts are sometimes bad/sometimes good.)
Re: <---like thischron_jobDecember 17 2010, 17:00:23 UTC
In typical usage, I consider "pussy" as a definitely sexist word, because as an insult is carries sexually pejorative connotations, stereotypically connected to the feminine.
I.e. someone is a pussy because they are weak, whiny, or not 'manly' enough.
Cunt is more taboo, more 'offensive', but yet to me it seems less sexist. I may be alone in this, but when I hear someone call someone else a Cunt, I don't hear any of those stereotypical connotations. It doesn't seem to me like Cunt is another way to pejoratively connect someone to the feminine.
To say that 'cunt' is inherently wrong is to imply that there is something inherently wrong with my genitalia.
Personally I'm not aware of c*** being used for any other reason than in order to cause offence. This means that even if it is used jovially, simply in order to refer to genitals, I still think of the other context. This is, of course, part of the problem.
The thing is that c*** has a history of usage to undermine women which the word "dick" does not have. Similarly "whitey" is not as offensive as n*****.
As for whether or not it's different in the UK, no, not really. I am aware of how it is used there and just because it is more socially acceptable doesn't make it different.
More socially acceptable in the UK? Are you sure? It's pretty much the only word (or at least it was) that the BBC will never allow to be broadcast.
As a woman and a feminist, I do use the word. My mother also uses it. That is probably how I picked it up. We've actually had discussions about this in the past and how in our opinion the word 'cunt' is so offensive that women, especially when pointing about male ignorance about the female experience, should actively reclaim it. The fact that a woman can refer to her vagina as a 'cunt' while a man cannot takes a word which was originally used to demean women and gives her empowerment and control. It's like saying, yes, I do have a cunt, and it is not a dirty thing - it is a wonderful and beautiful cunt!
To give you an idea of context, my stepdad was saying the other day how tampons are "way bigger" than cotton used the plug a normal sized wound and my mom and I were laughing at him because he obviously (like many men) doesn't understand how tampons work. My mom was like, "The actual tampon is smaller than the applicator, how big do you think our cunts are?!"
I clarified the difference between 'cunt' and 'dick' above. I agree with you, basically, but it is still offensive to refer to rude men as 'dicks' (I mean really, think about what that means) just as it is still offensive to call a white person 'whitey'. No doubt cunt and the n word are much more offensive but to me it's just different degrees of wrong. If we're serious about changing the pattern of using such words to demean people we should be consistent imo.
Yes, it is more socially acceptable in the UK as far as I am aware? I'm sure it is still very offensive there but I always get the impression that the US is much more conservative with regards to language than other English speaking countries... You can't say many words on regular TV here (fuck, asshole, bitch, etc) but not only can you not say cunt, you probably wouldn't think to. The slur version of it is so offensive here that people don't even say it when they are being vulgar, because it is a whole other level of vulgarity. (closer to but still not on the same scale as the n word) I have actually sliped up and used it in casual conversation with peoplee I don't know well in its non-offensive way and there was like a collective gasp of air and a moment of shock from everyone else. Usually I don't use the word in polite company for that reason.
This wouldn't be the only case of word usage where you might come into conflict with other feminists though, is it? I seem to remembering you advocating the use of the word "slut", in a negative way too.
But yeah, I'd agree that, in the case of the c-word, it is something that women would need to reclaim. Whereas the demeaning history of misogyny means that it will, for now, be inappropriate whenever men use it.
I was saying elsewhere in the comments. If a term isn't used so much it can lose its force. I was wondering whether perhaps that meant that people in America would see it as more quaint than shocking since it is so rarely used. I couldn't be sure about this though. I certainly wouldn't expect the c-word to be used in polite company in the UK.
I don't think there are many issues in feminism upon which everyone agrees, lol. There are so many different specific lines of thought and arguments labeled 'feminist'.
Only if you take my calling someone a slut as being negative. I don't think of 'slutty' a bad thing. I advocate for the use of it to mean what it is meant to mean, and I disagree that the meaning is negative. I can also see how it is a word like cunt which you have to be careful about applying to people unless you know them very well and they know you mean it in an ironic or otherwise neutral way.
Example: I used to make out on the bus on the way to work with a guy who was eleven years my senior and rode the same bus route. That was pretty slutty of me and I have no regrets. I was 18, it was legal, why should we be ashamed?
Another usage would be calling my dear friend 'slut' when she doens't pick up her phone. "*beep* Slut! It's me! Pick up your phone!" Because we're young vivacious women, we laugh at insults to demean us and wear them with pride.
I don't think there are many issues in feminism upon which everyone agrees, lol.
Oh, of course. I just thought that it was worth remembering that viewing the c-word as "no big deal" is actually fairly rare for feminist women and that you've been known to refer to other similarly dodgy terms as "no big deal" in the past.
(I think the main problem I had in the previous case was the context in which you wished to use it. I follow the LJ comm "sluts 4 choice" where the term is being reclaimed somewhat, but you seemed to be advocating a negative use of the historically misogynistic term. Not that I want to start up a big argument here, of course. I'm just noting that the c-word issue is rather different because you want to remove all negative connotations in the case of the c-word.)
Example: I used to make out on the bus on the way to work with a guy who was eleven years my senior and rode the same bus route. That was pretty slutty of me and I have no regrets. I was 18, it was legal, why should we be ashamed?
The problem with this in short: Was it slutty of him?
Another usage would be calling my dear friend 'slut' when she doens't pick up her phone. "*beep* Slut! It's me! Pick up your phone!" Because we're young vivacious women, we laugh at insults to demean us and wear them with pride.
On the basis of what you were saying earlier, you could just as easily use the c-word there (because you know each other well).
You are right though, some words in America are so non-existent that they are kind of quaint. Like "wanker". How insulting is it to call someone that in the UK? In the US isn't not even really a swear, most people wouldn't raise an eyebrow at it. Or 'bloody' instead of 'damn', 'bloody' is more like 'drat' and 'oh dang' or something else too uncommon to sound really forceful.
But cunt isn't like that. We know cunt, we just find it too offensive to use most of the time.
"Wanker" is pretty insulting if it's shouted at you, yeah. Worse than "bastard", I'd say.
"Bloody" is not like "drat". "Damn" feels more like "drat" here. (I used to say "drat" when I was about 8 or 9, lol. Now that really does feel quaint.)
To say that 'cunt' is inherently wrong is to imply that there is something inherently wrong with my genitalia. What else should I call it? My vag? Being sensitive to the feelings of others does not mean eliminating all slang terms for the vagina and never referring to it as a twat, muffin, pussy, or cunt in informal, private dialogue, literature, or art. I am all for women reclaiming the word cunt for personal use to refer in a loving and/or empowering way to vaginas.
However, I do think it is offensive to call someone a cunt as a slur. When used on a man it has the implication that to be associated with being like a vagina should offend them/the vagina is offensive (same reasoning as above), and to call it to a woman has both this connotation and the effect of demeaning her by equating her entire being with her vagina.
As for whether or not it's different in the UK, no, not really. I am aware of how it is used there and just because it is more socially acceptable doesn't make it different. I have recently been very conscious that American usage of the word 'dick' in the same way (like, 'oh he was being a dick') is also offensive and as such have been trying to stop using the term.
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I haven't ever seen/ heard of men getting really angry about women using the word "dick" the way that some men use "cunt"... whereas, women hate the c word.
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However, if you examine why it is wrong to call people cunts, I think it also applies to calling people dicks. That is not to say that they are equally offensive in all areas of the world nor to imply that cunt is not a more offensive word most of the time, but I do think they are both - to a degree - offensive. Sort of how slurs against white people are offensive but not to the same degree as slurs against minorities are...But both are wrong, because you shouldn't slur anyone because of their racial identity.
I like the word cunt. XD (not as a slur, but as a reclaimed word to refer to my vagina)
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Ryan and I were talking about this because I used the word in ONTD_politics and someone got offended and Ryan says that saying, "You are a fabulous cunt" (the way some people say 'bitch' but mean something nice by it) it different from saying "You're a stupid cunt." Which I agree with and it is a consciousness raiser to have someone point it out (even though a part of me *hates* all the derailing and political correctness and I just want to throw up my hands and cite etymology until I'm blue. But I suspect this may have a lot to do with me not wanting to be wrong, too. *g*).
IDK, I'm uncomfortable with it in a sexual context even, because it seems like a "dirty" word, whereas "pussy" doesn't...? IDEK why that is. And I've always thought of a "twat" as a ridiculous person, not a piece of female genitalia, even though I know that's where it comes from.
I've never thought of the connection to "dick" but you're right, it's just as derogatory (though not as inflammatory, I think, because of the power differential and because female parts seem to always = bad while male parts are sometimes bad/sometimes good.)
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In typical usage, I consider "pussy" as a definitely sexist word, because as an insult is carries sexually pejorative connotations, stereotypically connected to the feminine.
I.e. someone is a pussy because they are weak, whiny, or not 'manly' enough.
Cunt is more taboo, more 'offensive', but yet to me it seems less sexist. I may be alone in this, but when I hear someone call someone else a Cunt, I don't hear any of those stereotypical connotations. It doesn't seem to me like Cunt is another way to pejoratively connect someone to the feminine.
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Personally I'm not aware of c*** being used for any other reason than in order to cause offence. This means that even if it is used jovially, simply in order to refer to genitals, I still think of the other context. This is, of course, part of the problem.
The thing is that c*** has a history of usage to undermine women which the word "dick" does not have. Similarly "whitey" is not as offensive as n*****.
As for whether or not it's different in the UK, no, not really. I am aware of how it is used there and just because it is more socially acceptable doesn't make it different.
More socially acceptable in the UK? Are you sure? It's pretty much the only word (or at least it was) that the BBC will never allow to be broadcast.
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To give you an idea of context, my stepdad was saying the other day how tampons are "way bigger" than cotton used the plug a normal sized wound and my mom and I were laughing at him because he obviously (like many men) doesn't understand how tampons work. My mom was like, "The actual tampon is smaller than the applicator, how big do you think our cunts are?!"
I clarified the difference between 'cunt' and 'dick' above. I agree with you, basically, but it is still offensive to refer to rude men as 'dicks' (I mean really, think about what that means) just as it is still offensive to call a white person 'whitey'. No doubt cunt and the n word are much more offensive but to me it's just different degrees of wrong. If we're serious about changing the pattern of using such words to demean people we should be consistent imo.
Yes, it is more socially acceptable in the UK as far as I am aware? I'm sure it is still very offensive there but I always get the impression that the US is much more conservative with regards to language than other English speaking countries... You can't say many words on regular TV here (fuck, asshole, bitch, etc) but not only can you not say cunt, you probably wouldn't think to. The slur version of it is so offensive here that people don't even say it when they are being vulgar, because it is a whole other level of vulgarity. (closer to but still not on the same scale as the n word) I have actually sliped up and used it in casual conversation with peoplee I don't know well in its non-offensive way and there was like a collective gasp of air and a moment of shock from everyone else. Usually I don't use the word in polite company for that reason.
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This wouldn't be the only case of word usage where you might come into conflict with other feminists though, is it? I seem to remembering you advocating the use of the word "slut", in a negative way too.
But yeah, I'd agree that, in the case of the c-word, it is something that women would need to reclaim. Whereas the demeaning history of misogyny means that it will, for now, be inappropriate whenever men use it.
I was saying elsewhere in the comments. If a term isn't used so much it can lose its force. I was wondering whether perhaps that meant that people in America would see it as more quaint than shocking since it is so rarely used. I couldn't be sure about this though. I certainly wouldn't expect the c-word to be used in polite company in the UK.
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Only if you take my calling someone a slut as being negative. I don't think of 'slutty' a bad thing. I advocate for the use of it to mean what it is meant to mean, and I disagree that the meaning is negative. I can also see how it is a word like cunt which you have to be careful about applying to people unless you know them very well and they know you mean it in an ironic or otherwise neutral way.
Example: I used to make out on the bus on the way to work with a guy who was eleven years my senior and rode the same bus route. That was pretty slutty of me and I have no regrets. I was 18, it was legal, why should we be ashamed?
Another usage would be calling my dear friend 'slut' when she doens't pick up her phone. "*beep* Slut! It's me! Pick up your phone!" Because we're young vivacious women, we laugh at insults to demean us and wear them with pride.
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Oh, of course. I just thought that it was worth remembering that viewing the c-word as "no big deal" is actually fairly rare for feminist women and that you've been known to refer to other similarly dodgy terms as "no big deal" in the past.
(I think the main problem I had in the previous case was the context in which you wished to use it. I follow the LJ comm "sluts 4 choice" where the term is being reclaimed somewhat, but you seemed to be advocating a negative use of the historically misogynistic term. Not that I want to start up a big argument here, of course. I'm just noting that the c-word issue is rather different because you want to remove all negative connotations in the case of the c-word.)
Example: I used to make out on the bus on the way to work with a guy who was eleven years my senior and rode the same bus route. That was pretty slutty of me and I have no regrets. I was 18, it was legal, why should we be ashamed?
The problem with this in short: Was it slutty of him?
Another usage would be calling my dear friend 'slut' when she doens't pick up her phone. "*beep* Slut! It's me! Pick up your phone!" Because we're young vivacious women, we laugh at insults to demean us and wear them with pride.
On the basis of what you were saying earlier, you could just as easily use the c-word there (because you know each other well).
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But cunt isn't like that. We know cunt, we just find it too offensive to use most of the time.
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"Bloody" is not like "drat". "Damn" feels more like "drat" here. (I used to say "drat" when I was about 8 or 9, lol. Now that really does feel quaint.)
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