Men or Males?
Over on another forum, there is a poster who continually refers to "Muslim males" who promote violence against women, religious terrorism, etc. She says that she refused to call them "men" because they aren't men; they have no honor or morality. I pointed out that this definition of manhood is arbitrary and sexist because gender should not depend on some culturally derived action. What I specifically said was:
"I don't think that gender is something you have the right to bestow and take away at your pleasure or by opinion. What makes a man a man is that he has a penis and/or male genetic characteristics. It's not "acting like a man," whatever that means. Manhood is a cultural trope, I'll grant that, but is it any more fair for a Muslim man to say, "Those American FEMALES who wear revealing clothes and have sex before marriage aren't real women!" Does he have the right to say what makes you a woman? Wouldn't you resent that a bit?
Moreover, by attempting to make this distinction you are using sex prejudices that are hurtful to both men and women. Sure, they aren't negative stereotypes (I think you mean something like, "Real men have honor" or "Real men treat women with respect") but it doesn't matter. The implication is still that to be a "real man" one must perform some action rather than just be what they are. Which is sexist and ultimately destructive (historically, especially to women).
Finally, if you are going to continue making some kind of arcane distinction between Muslim men and Muslim males, you might try being more clear about it. Maybe instead of making up your own language and risking misunderstanding, you can say "Some Muslim men are..."
[...]
I don't deny that some of the definition for "manhood" is culturally derived. However, that is problematic, isn't it? Because when gender becomes something that is decided upon by others, then that leaves a lot of people out in the cold. What about effeminate men? What about males submissives? What about gay men? Are they not *real* men? Our culture would say they aren't.
This is what feminists have been fighting against for years--the fencing in of women based upon arbitrary, culturally derived standards of femininity. I think that each woman decided what being a woman is. And that means that the same has to go for men as well.
I think it's sexist to say that men have to be this or that in order to be defined as men. Because it's exclusionary and prejudiced. And because those definitions are used to keep people in certain roles--in this case, men as bread-winning masters of the universe. I think those roles are bullshit.
Now, if you want to re-define "be a man" to mean "be honorable" fine (and, btw, it's laughable that you think "being a woman" is defined in our culture as being honorable and not being a sexdoll. You must not watch any TV, movies, listen to music or browse the internet). But we both know that's not what it means. It means "be tough" and "don't show emotion" and a whole host of other maxims like that. These are roles that men are pressured into filling, often to their determent. Have you ever wondered why so many American men feel disaffected, disconnected and lost??? It's because of these gender roles that we as a society create. We expect men to be independent (lonely), tough (emotionless) and hard-working (workaholic). And when they fail, their very GENDER is called into question, as if they have failed at being people.
We shouldn't buy into that. It's bullshit.
Well, this has opened a whole can of shit. I'm basically being called a radical feminist (because of my support of men....) and getting generally shouted down. Is what I've said so extreme?
"I don't think that gender is something you have the right to bestow and take away at your pleasure or by opinion. What makes a man a man is that he has a penis and/or male genetic characteristics. It's not "acting like a man," whatever that means. Manhood is a cultural trope, I'll grant that, but is it any more fair for a Muslim man to say, "Those American FEMALES who wear revealing clothes and have sex before marriage aren't real women!" Does he have the right to say what makes you a woman? Wouldn't you resent that a bit?
Moreover, by attempting to make this distinction you are using sex prejudices that are hurtful to both men and women. Sure, they aren't negative stereotypes (I think you mean something like, "Real men have honor" or "Real men treat women with respect") but it doesn't matter. The implication is still that to be a "real man" one must perform some action rather than just be what they are. Which is sexist and ultimately destructive (historically, especially to women).
Finally, if you are going to continue making some kind of arcane distinction between Muslim men and Muslim males, you might try being more clear about it. Maybe instead of making up your own language and risking misunderstanding, you can say "Some Muslim men are..."
[...]
I don't deny that some of the definition for "manhood" is culturally derived. However, that is problematic, isn't it? Because when gender becomes something that is decided upon by others, then that leaves a lot of people out in the cold. What about effeminate men? What about males submissives? What about gay men? Are they not *real* men? Our culture would say they aren't.
This is what feminists have been fighting against for years--the fencing in of women based upon arbitrary, culturally derived standards of femininity. I think that each woman decided what being a woman is. And that means that the same has to go for men as well.
I think it's sexist to say that men have to be this or that in order to be defined as men. Because it's exclusionary and prejudiced. And because those definitions are used to keep people in certain roles--in this case, men as bread-winning masters of the universe. I think those roles are bullshit.
Now, if you want to re-define "be a man" to mean "be honorable" fine (and, btw, it's laughable that you think "being a woman" is defined in our culture as being honorable and not being a sexdoll. You must not watch any TV, movies, listen to music or browse the internet). But we both know that's not what it means. It means "be tough" and "don't show emotion" and a whole host of other maxims like that. These are roles that men are pressured into filling, often to their determent. Have you ever wondered why so many American men feel disaffected, disconnected and lost??? It's because of these gender roles that we as a society create. We expect men to be independent (lonely), tough (emotionless) and hard-working (workaholic). And when they fail, their very GENDER is called into question, as if they have failed at being people.
We shouldn't buy into that. It's bullshit.
Well, this has opened a whole can of shit. I'm basically being called a radical feminist (because of my support of men....) and getting generally shouted down. Is what I've said so extreme?