I'm having deep think-y thoughts - that can't be good...
So, there's a really brilliant conversation going on over at be-compromised here, that starts with the Sacred Temple and ends up in a discussion on how to portray Natasha (and other female characters, but in particular her) and do them justice
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I see what they're saying about the difference between BROKEN (and in need of repair) and DAMAGED (yet healed around the scars). In general, strong women aren't broken. They may be damaged but the reason they're strong is because they healed. Natasha is strong, yet damaged. She can be both at the same time without the other getting in the way. She is, in no way, broken.
Natasha doesn't need Clint but she's allowed him in (which is what I feel that except from the X-Files story is also trying to say). There's that subtle difference. You can have a Natasha story without feeling cheated or being bored. She's a character in her own right who doesn't need Clint to complete her or the story.
Do I think you need to worry? No, I don't. I think you're already pretty aware of what they're talking about. It's good to keep in mind and I will be doing some analyzing of my own stuff to make sure I have that sharpened edge of Damaged Yet Unbroken with my Natasha. But I wouldn't say you've broken any of the rules on strong women!
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No, no! Don't worry about it! I totally get that - I get that way too. I absolutely appreciate the concern, too. :)
I see what they're saying about the difference between BROKEN (and in need of repair) and DAMAGED (yet healed around the scars). In general, strong women aren't broken. They may be damaged but the reason they're strong is because they healed. Natasha is strong, yet damaged. She can be both at the same time without the other getting in the way. She is, in no way, broken.
You know, the more I think about why this poked at me so much? I think part of the problem is that I don't seem to make the same distinctions between the two words (as words in and of themselves) as other people seem to be... which is where I get/got confused. I tend to use the terms interchangably when talking about people's emotions, and probably use the terms "fix" and "heal" more similarly, too (though I guess I associate a quicker, easy solution with "fix" than "heal" and also that "fixing" tends to be done to someone while healing is organic and self-directed.)
And I absolutely think she's stronger because she's healed from some of the things that have happened to her (although I tend to shy away from the idea that in order to be strong a character has to be damaged or have a traumatic past - Jane for instance, or Betty or Pepper, all of them are strong, but they don't have the same kind of trauma in their background that Natasha does.)
Natasha doesn't need Clint but she's allowed him in (which is what I feel that except from the X-Files story is also trying to say). There's that subtle difference. You can have a Natasha story without feeling cheated or being bored. She's a character in her own right who doesn't need Clint to complete her or the story.
Yes, absolutely yes. Where that whole passage ends up going in the XF story is how working with someone who's your equal challenges you and changes you, and changes how you interact with the rest of the world - it's not that you can't live without the other person (though you may or may not *want* to, which is heartache and loss and something else) but that... hmm... like if you're working out a math problem, and you're used to working with someone else who's as good at math as you, and then you get paired up with someone who doesn't know anything beyond 2+2, and you feel like you're doing two people's jobs. You can still work out the problem, but it's much more difficult, and you're more likely to make a mistake without that other person there to catch it. And I love the idea of two (whole) people forming something all the stronger and bigger than themselves.
Do I think you need to worry? No, I don't. I think you're already pretty aware of what they're talking about. It's good to keep in mind and I will be doing some analyzing of my own stuff to make sure I have that sharpened edge of Damaged Yet Unbroken with my Natasha. But I wouldn't say you've broken any of the rules on strong women!
Thank you for that, really. :) This is territory I'm really, really bad at. In college, I actively shied away from what was termed feminist discussion or interpretation of literature, because it normally just made me really mad. On the one hand, I'm absolutely, without a doubt for everyone having equal opportunities and respect regardless of things like gender, race, sexuality, and etc. - but on the other hand, I feel like authors/artists/creators have the right to create characters that speak to them, in situations and scenarios that they want to write about. (There was a particularly bad "discussion" once about Zoe's role on Firefly that pretty much put me the rest of the way off the whole topic.) So, it's not an area I tend to engage in or work with much... which come to think of *that* is probably a reason why this made me so anxious in the first place. idek.
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I'm also the type to stay away from that sort of conflict! It's no fun! I just want to create!
I love the math problem idea! That is pretty much what I was coming at but from a whole different side of things. It's exactly like working out a math problem together!
And one last thought on the term "strong": I don't think that the trauma needs to be major for a person to be broken/damaged. I don't have the vast canon of Marvel to back up these thoughts but I'm running with what I have in my head. You'll have to tell me where I'm erring on this!
Let's take Jane. From her attitude in the movie, she's on a mission. She doesn't care what anyone else thinks. She wants to get her data. My thoughts, when I first saw this, was that she's endured trauma at some point in her life. Probably someone telling her she wasn't good enough to do research or that she wasn't smart enough. Instead of agreeing with them and going into... I don't know... flower arranging, she digs her heels in and says, "No, I'm going to do this and you can't stop me." The hurt is still there. She heals over it and it becomes a part of who she is.
Along comes Thor and he doesn't try to tell her not to do her research. In fact, he helps her out and he's supportive. The scar is still there. She'll always have it. But now that Thor has entered her life, it's healed over a little bit more. It can be bumped without stinging. She was strong before Thor. She is stronger with Thor. An outsider may look at the trauma and not think much of it but it's there nonetheless. It has shaped who she is today.
All three of those women are interesting, strong characters. They are interesting because of their flaws. They are strong because of how they've handled their flaws. They have been damaged. They have healed. They have carried on.
I don't know. It's all there in my head. I don't know why I keep trying to do meta. I'm not good at it. You make me want to write those three, though. I really need to see the Hulk movies now! *grins*
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Yes, yes you do. I've only seen Inedible Hulk, and it was...decent movie with major plot holes. And they didn't use Betty at all well - but I love her. She's quiet and softly-spoken and nice (and I get the sense that part of her bond with Bruce is that they both grew up in abusive households, even if both reacted differently) and then if Bruce is threatened, she will instantly turn and be all claws and raised voice and pure fierceness. And I want ALL THE FIC about her.
Also, she and Jane, they need to meet. They would be amazing.
(And, Koren, not ignoring your comments above! I'm just being good and resting my hands)
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that's the only one I've seen (and I'm ok with that, since it's the only one pertinent to the timeline) - but OMG ALL THE BETTY LOVE. The LAB SCENE. She is fierce. I'm convinced that as soon as she can get into New York following the battle, she's on Tony's door step demanding to know where Bruce is. (actually I think I have that bit started on my harddrive somewhere. Anyway.)
If you haven't read icarus_chained's take on bringing her into the post-movie fun, I recommend it. I think it's in the Tony and Bruce series, but I can't be sure.
Also, she and Jane, they need to meet. They would be amazing.
Oh! Oh! That's the thing! It's very, VERY likely that Jane knows (to one degree or another) both Betty and Bruce. Betty still teaches at Culver, and it's strongly implied (if not outright said?) that Bruce used to work there before the accident, which was in 2006. Even with Jane being a genius, she was probably doing at least undergrad work at Culver in 2006 - it's certainly where Eric works and where she's doing her post-doc work. You get the feeling from how Jane and Eric talk that it's one of those private universities where people kind of stick around. (maybe that's just me, who knows) - regardless, you can totally make a case that Jane may have had either or both Bruce and Betty for professors at one point or another. (More likely Bruce, since his field overlaps more closely with hers, but she probably did some other science classes especially as an undergrad.)
(And, Koren, not ignoring your comments above! I'm just being good and resting my hands)
That's good. Comments will still be there, later. :-) They keep pretty well, lol.
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Hell yeah. She TOTALLY does turn up at Tony's door. I think I'll have to include it in my epic daemon!AU (a fic full of people and first impressions, whee) and she can turn up with her squirrel and be all "!!! I AM NOT LEAVING UNTIL I SEE HIM. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, YOU CAN BITE ME" (I love her so much. And I think Bruce actually needs her around, too)
Oh! Oh! That's the thing! It's very, VERY likely that Jane knows (to one degree or another) both Betty and Bruce. Betty still teaches at Culver, and it's strongly implied (if not outright said?) that Bruce used to work there before the accident, which was in 2006. Even with Jane being a genius, she was probably doing at least undergrad work at Culver in 2006 - it's certainly where Eric works and where she's doing her post-doc work. You get the feeling from how Jane and Eric talk that it's one of those private universities where people kind of stick around. (maybe that's just me, who knows) - regardless, you can totally make a case that Jane may have had either or both Bruce and Betty for professors at one point or another. (More likely Bruce, since his field overlaps more closely with hers, but she probably did some other science classes especially as an undergrad.)
oooh, that makes so much sense! I...never managed to stick to uni, so I have very little idea of how it all works. <.<
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Eeeee! LOVE! (I want to read that whole fic so bad, you have no idea.)
Speaking of DaemonAUs - did we ever finish that convo in the prompt-thread? I know I'd at least thought of a reply to the last thing I got, but I can't remember now if I sent it? I'll have to go check, because the whole thing was intriguing the hell out of me.
oooh, that makes so much sense! I...never managed to stick to uni, so I have very little idea of how it all works. <.<
Ok - it's actually not really "standard" to do your undergrad/masters/*and* doctoral work at the same place, but it happens occasionally. And I got the idea that Jane's Dad and Eric had been colleagues, so it's possible Jane was raised in and around the university there and might've stuck because it was home and familiar, and Eric was willing to kind of indulge her theories a little bit. IDK.
I never finished college either, but I live in a town that's primarily a "college town" and have lots of friends who are going, did go, and-or are or have worked there for a long time. (I would absolutely LOVE to get a clerical job there, but it's not likely to happen and I really like my current job, too, so.)
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And *nodnods* gotcha.
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And <3 hah, yes.
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NODNODNOD. I am nodding at you so hard you don't even know. I was hella lucky back when Farscape came on to find a really, amazingly awesome fan community (which be-compromised reminds me of, a lot) that played nicely with one another and was super supportive and I loved it. But I've had so much trouble finding that in other fandoms since then, until now. And that's one of the things that really makes the difference for me in terms of how much I enjoy myself and what kind of output I can generate. With a supportive community behind me, I'm *motivated* to do more things.
I'm also the type to stay away from that sort of conflict! It's no fun! I just want to create!
This, too. :D
I love the math problem idea! That is pretty much what I was coming at but from a whole different side of things. It's exactly like working out a math problem together!
I just cannot praise that series highly enough. And that's partly because it hits just about every. single. one. of my buttons (the good ones) about what I want in an XF fic or a fic in general. But some of the insights she has about their partnership and personalities are just so amazing. Then I start looking at C/N through that lens, and I'm just gone.
And one last thought on the term "strong": I don't think that the trauma needs to be major for a person to be broken/damaged. I don't have the vast canon of Marvel to back up these thoughts but I'm running with what I have in my head. You'll have to tell me where I'm erring on this!
Once you get beyond X-Men, my comic-verse canon is slim to none, unfortunately. But that's ok anyway, we'll stumble through! :-)
Let's take Jane... Probably someone telling her she wasn't good enough to do research or that she wasn't smart enough. Instead of agreeing with them and going into... I don't know... flower arranging, she digs her heels in and says, "No, I'm going to do this and you can't stop me." The hurt is still there. She heals over it and it becomes a part of who she is.
From that angle, I'd say that probably everyone has some kind of hurt or trauma in their past that spurs them on, and I think you're exactly right about that. When I was saying "trauma" I was thinking major/Bad abuse/harm/etc like what Natasha et. al. went through as kids. So I think you're right on your point, definitely. I guess what I was getting at is that I think you can have a character who had loving parents, wasn't abused or neglected, but who is still a strong person. They'll certainly have rough patches and stuff, but not necessarily things like capital "A" abuse. (As it were.)
Along comes Thor and he doesn't try to tell her not to do her research. In fact, he helps her out and he's supportive. The scar is still there. She'll always have it. But now that Thor has entered her life, it's healed over a little bit more. It can be bumped without stinging. She was strong before Thor. She is stronger with Thor. An outsider may look at the trauma and not think much of it but it's there nonetheless. It has shaped who she is today.
Yes, this. For all that we sometimes like to think that people can heal and build themselves all on their own (and, well, we can after a fashion if we need to) having other people that love and believe in you? That makes all the difference sometimes. I'm completely hung up on relationships (not just romantic/sexual ones - ANY relationships) and how they effect people.
I don't know. It's all there in my head. I don't know why I keep trying to do meta. I'm not good at it. You make me want to write those three, though. I really need to see the Hulk movies now! *grins*
NODNODNOD. At least the one in the direct timeline of the other movies. I want SO DESPERATELY for them to do another Hulk movie with Mark Ruffalo instead because I think he and Liv Tyler would be dynamite together. Betty is SUCH a BAMF, I love her. I have all the Betty feels.
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