A plea for rational political discourse

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This isn't about who you vote for or an attempt to sway your vote. This is a discussion everyone needs to take part in in American politics, lest it stay broken forever. Because the fact of the matter is, it is broken. It's become a populist popularity contest, at only slightly above the maturity level of high schoolers, except instead of how much

Comments

[fair_haven]

I agree with your general topic, as well as both sides always make out their President to be much better than they are.

However, I disagree with the Obama/McCain campaign in particular. I'm going to have to say I pretty much flat-out disagree with what Obama said about McCain, because I watched every single one of his speeches and he never said any of those things in his campaign, nor did the Democratic party (I won't say Democrats, as the populus that blindly follows any party says stupid things. But as for the higher-ups and Obama himself, the stupidity of campaign smearing was leaning so far to one side I found myself dying in laughter during speech comparisons).

I truly believe they had a good chance, a great chance, of winning in spite of it all because racism is still alive and well in the USA. I would say a few things really ruined McCain:

1. Having a message machine call out homes to say that Obama is/associated with terrorists and was a socialist. There is no possible way they could have called more homes than people would see and be shocked on television about that whole scandal.

2. Republicans doing things like telling African American communities that they had a separate voting day - the day AFTER an election. Which also got widely publicized.

3. That idiot senator saying "radical democrats" as well as "the media" should be under government survellience and investigated for their loyalty to the states. I remember seeing that on live television. And then her denying it in spite of the tapes and live viewers that saw it later. That isn't Republican - it's fascist. And I think people seeing that there were Republicans who weren't really Republican anymore in offices like the senator's office really hurt McCain.

4. Cheney endorsing McCain's plan really killed him. Lots of people see Cheney as a dangerous fool. Dangerous, and wanted in many countries outside the USA for war crimes. Having people that other countries now want to run on trial for War Crimes and would take if they went to their country (like Spain) definitely did not help the Republican party.

Separation of church and state has always been of utmost importance to me. In a melting pot society, we can't have one religion's laws get put into our government's laws.

You're right about pretty much everything else, though, other than the campaign. I live in two very Republican neighborhoods, but there was one thing that the Republican people - even those voting for McCain because Obama was a socialist/Arab/Muslim (like my grandmother) admitted that the Palin/McCain side of the campaign was disgraceful. When the people voting for you have to admit you're campaign is awful, that's pretty sad.

All this makes me laugh. See, immediately after the Civil War, the Democrats were the religious right, the Democrats were the ones that wanted slavery re-instated, the Democrats were the BAD GUYS. And the Republicans wanted freedom, African American suffrage, and were able to dissociate themselves from the time and try to see beyond their time (at least, their leaders).

I feel like the political parties have done a real 180. It's hilarious to me that the people who fought for slavery - the party that fought for slavery - nominated the first African American President for their party.

The funniest thing is that they fought severely against women's suffrage and rights as well, and I have a feeling they'll also one day have the first female president. It's intensely ironic. I keep wondering when the views are going to flip again.

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I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with the last election and how things were run, or with my post. I certainly wasn't defending Obama's campaign against McCain. I will and have, but this was decidedly a nonpartisan post. A lot of the things Obama said about McCain were patently untrue, and the same with a lot of the things McCain said about Obama (the late-term abortion killings comes to mind-- an incomprehensible blindness to facts is the only explanation for McCain's interpretation). So I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. I really don't think either one was not-a-scumbag in this election. I happen to personally think Obama was far less harsh. (Pointedly, Obama never called McCain a terrorist or tarnished his record of service for the United States, both lowball meaningless-in-the-grand-scheme-of-it remarks.)

[fair_haven]

Quick clarification. I can't read the original post I was replying to:

I know you weren't defending Obama's campaign. In fact, the one disagreement I said I had, of one with your whole post is that the post makes it sound like Obama was just as insulting toward McCain as McCain was toward Obama, when - as you have said - isn't true, it was much less harsh. While Obama might have erred here and there in his statements about McCain, it all really paled in comparison with what McCain said about Obama, and on a few occasions he apologized for botching up. The two worst things I heard from Obama was that it was the Bush administration all over again, and parading Cheney's endorsement. But considering Cheney's endorsement, I think it was probably true if not very open.

The US History thing was because I'm taking a college US History course related to after the Civil War. It's just... on my brain.

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Ah. I see what you mean.

I ended up voting for Obama (there internets, are you happy? You know now.) I didn't really want to, but who in the past 40 years who has any brains has really wanted to vote for who they voted for? Obama's ad-hominem attacks were less virulent and mean-spirited. But it really is a bad rationalization for ad-hominems in the first place. He dug up dirt on McCain, misrepresented and implicated his voting record in patently untrue ways, and especially here lately (unsurprisingly) has picked up Karl Rove-ian tactics (associating the Republican party with Rush Limbaugh as a straw man to attack).

It's easy to say that McCain should be the first to tone down the rhetoric (and by proxy the Republicans). But what should be said is that the rhetoric on both sides needs total redefinition as outlined in my post. I.e. logical arguments that elucidate policy. And that's not gonna happen until we, as the voting populous, demand it. I do think we're on the same page here.

[fair_haven]

I think we've been stepping up, stepping up, stepping up, where attacks get worse and worse and worse.

Then, BOOM. Someone overstepped the line and (hopefully) both parties realized that there is at least a limitation.

Eventually, maybe there will even be a realization that there shouldn't even NEED to be a limitation. There are enough smart people out there to understand what politicians are saying and vote wisely.

... On the other hand, often putting oneself out there for voting implies a desire for power, so maybe the chances of anything beyond the limitation of rhetoric and insults is far-fetched. Particularly with so many Americans having a gladiator-like appreciation of TV shows bent on making people suffer.

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Oh we can pressure whomever into speaking properly and making logical arguments precisely because they vie for power over anything else. But your second point in the last paragraph is particularly apt. We, in general, as the American people, don't have the balls to demand better in politicians.