Just when you think you've seen it all...
A lot of crazy stuff has happened in the past few days, but this definitely beats it all... like you wouldn't believe it.
Don't you just love it if total strangers tell the public exactly what kind of person you are?
But let me start at the very beginning:
I've been involved in the fanfiction fandom for three years now, and been a member of several internet forums for even longer. Trust me, I know how the internet works: people with different opinions meet, and clash occasionally. Some are even there for the clashing to begin with.
Like in real life, I am friends with different types of people on the internet, too. I love it, love discussions, love the fact that we have different opinions at times.
What I don't love, however, is drama. Sometimes though, I get caught up in it. It's never about me personally, I usually enter to defend a friend or an opinion I consider worth defending. "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything", after all.
I'm that kind of person you can insult and attack all you want, I don't care that much, but harm my friends, and I will get all protective.
As I said, I'm friends with a bunch of very different (yet very lovely and amazing) people, so sometimes conflicts cause me to get caught up between the lines, or between two sides I can equally see, two people I'm equally friends with. In such a case, I either stay neutral or pick the side I can see better, regardless of who I'm friends with longer and such things...
And until this day, I never lost a friend over it, and I never got insulted or attacked on a really personal level (except one time by a user on FFnet who decided to just call me names for no reason, but that was rather ridiculous).
However, today, I was in for a surprise.
To those who don't know, this is the conflict:
http://amarissia.livejournal.com/129690.html (started here)
http://amarissia.livejournal.com/129952.html (continued here)
I'm friends with both Amarissia, who received a review to her story, and Gabriel, the reviewer. Knowing what I know about both of them, and given my personal, very deep connection to Gabriel, I just had to post a comment.
My initial reaction was this:
Ahm... honestly, I spent about ten minutes just staring at the screen, wondering what the hell I'm going to do now... I knew I had to post something, but I had no idea what and how... I... just...
Sorry, but honestly, I'm shaking. I hope you will forgive me for stating my honest opinion on this matter, but I just HAVE TO. I felt like my heart will explode otherwise...
I've known you for a long time, Amarissia, and I've followed you and your work, but I've never expected that one day I would read something like this from you. I'm not talking about the fact that you say the criticism you received is unjustified.
But why can't someone disagree? Every published writer is faced with criticsm at some point, often harsh criticism at that, and the art is to rise above it and not become personal. I know it's hard, but that's also part of what being a writer means.
Besides, it's not so much the content that bothers me, but your choice of words...
I remember a while back when you received your first negative comment ever.
By a person who didn't even have the guts to sign in, and never explained their reasons for hating your writing.
Back then, did you curse? Did you insult them?
No, you didn't... You were upset, yes, but that was it.
Now here we have a person who not only signs his review, but also tries to explain his motives. And he never ever swears or insults you, he tries to stay polite throughout.
Yes, you might not agree with him, but if you can state your opinion, why can't he? You are telling him not tell you how your characters behave, but at the same time, you tell him what to feel about a trauma that happened to him, and basically to shut up and not state his opinion. Yes, not all people who were raped are the same. But that also means all their opinions are equal, and none is 'better' or 'more valid' than the other.
And honestly, telling a person with SEVERE psychological problems to go and die??? I don't know what to say, actually... other than I really can't believe I just read that. I have no words...
http://amarissia.livejournal.com/129690.html?thread=2559898#t2559898
My final reaction as of today was this:
Seriously, you (refering to the previous post) just made the point I wanted to be made so badly, the point I wanted to make myself but found no suiting words to do so.
I was thinking all day about how I could word it so that people would finally see it was never about trolling (who in their right mind would pick an author that popular, with such a huge fanbase for trolling anyway?) or getting an author to change their story to fit a certain taste, but all I came up with was not good enough, not good enough not to be twisted and shrugged off yet again.
If Amarissia had just spoken to Gabriel in private as he requested, or had just posted her second entry with the explanations instead of the Frowny Face one, or had at least taken out the words 'motherfucker' and 'go die', I personally would have never ever posted a single comment on this matter.
From the beginning on, I never expected Amarissia to agree and say "Yes, the review is right; I should have never written the story." I never expected her to change a thing.
In a similar way, I never expected her friends and fans to watch quietly instead of defending her and the story.
All I expected was a little bit of respect towards a person who dared to pour his heart out and invested time in writing what he believed to be constructive criticism. Is this really too much to ask these days? Or does it all depend on who you are friends with now?
The reason this turned into a big emotional fight in the end was exactly because feelings had been hurt and people felt the need to stand up for what they believed to be right and defend 'their side' (often without even knowing the facts - like reading the review and the story in question), and yes, there were mistakes made on both sides. And in the end, people simply joined just for the drama and to continue an old war.
Sorry, but that is definitely how it looks to me. I freely admit it escalated there, but ON BOTH SIDES. There is not 'right' and 'wrong' here, like in a real war, in the end both sides lose, no matter how much each side tries to sell the outcome as their victory.
However, you should no ignore where it all started, and simply write it off as a 'trolling' incicent. That would be blind, self-righteous and downright wrong.
(And this will be my final statement. I have nothing else to say as of now.)
http://amarissia.livejournal.com/129952.html?thread=2624928#t2624928
You are free to read through all the posts and all my additional comments, but all the time, I never changed my opinion, which has always been the one expressed in the two posts quoted above. I was always there for Gabriel, and because of the hostile reaction to his review (more precisely the insults), never for any other reason or person.
Amarissia and I also talked via PM, and I explained my reasons to her there.
Let me also point out that I never had any hard feelings towards any of the people involved. Believe it or not, I can agree to disagree, and respect other opinions, as long as my own is expected in return. This is what I told ravensilver (who I had a totally friendly conversation with at some point in the past, also on Amarissia's journal) and ardwynna_m (who decided to fiercely hate me ever since a past conflict where I dared to disagree with her; and even defriended another LJ user without an explanation and obviously just because that person is also friends with Gabriel and me, and spoke up on his behalf, too).
I had conversations with both, but stopped when I realized there was no point. For me personally, the issue was over.
My final comment to ravensilver was not even about the initial conflict, but about the contrast between reality and fiction (she basically said fiction and reality where totally different matters, therefore 'anything goes' in fiction. Details can be read in the thread):
Interesting.
"It's fiction" = the universal excuse for everything.
So by your argumentation, it would be ok if I wrote a blatanty sexist or openly racist story, or one that - just an example - belittles or denies the holocaust, just because my muse tells me so and hey, it's fiction?
Just wonder why no publisher in their right mind will touch said story then... and why people on the net would most likely flame me relentlessly for uploading it.
Or why celebreties and other 'real existing people' would sue me if I wrote stories about them that show them in compromizing situations, but are oh so clearly fictional, because they never did this?
The flaw in your logic is that you assume everyone can judge what's fictional and what not... true, the characters and events might be, but there are always things that exist in real life, and at least some readers will assume it's a realitic description.
http://amarissia.livejournal.com/129952.html?thread=2617504#t2617504
(By the way, she never answered the questions I raised.)
As I said, for me, the issue was solved, but apparently not for ravensilver, and especially not for ardwynna_m.
(Let me make a prediction here: if anyone of them is going to comment - which I doubt - it's just to tell me that I'm a stalker for looking at the journal, and I had no business doing so in the first place. Well, it's still a public journal...)
Today, I looked at ravensilver's journal, and found this thread http://ravensilver.livejournal.com/174677.html about the entire incident. I briefly looked it over, finding the expected conspiracy theories and such, didn't really care, until I noticed my name there...
I let you be the judge of the following exchange taking place:
To enlarge the part in question:
(and mind you, ravensilver wrote her initial comment inquiring about me exactly 12 minutes after she assured Amarissia that she would stop the war and move on - as to be seen in this thread http://amarissia.livejournal.com/130228.html )
There is quite a lot I could say about this.
But I won't. I think this entry pretty much speaks for itself. Everyone can look up what I said on Amarissia's two posts, and then decide whether I deserve to be called "just another sock" or "a very dedicated, passive-aggressive ass-licker", or not.
Thanks to ice_lady for her statement though. It's appreciated.
The only thing I'm going to say to ravensilver and especially to ardwynna_m is this:
As you can see from my profile here on LJ, I'm friends with nephilim_rising, twiggyboredom, mallvip, gavriilushka, but also with amarissia, chibipinkbunny, sphinxofthenile and ice_lady (not even mentioning a bunch of other people). And I'm proud of all of them.
We might not always share the same opinion, but I accept them and they accept me. This is why we are friends, and why I have been friends with some of them for years.
And as for your opinion about me:
So you think you can judge me?
Don't you just love it if total strangers tell the public exactly what kind of person you are?
But let me start at the very beginning:
I've been involved in the fanfiction fandom for three years now, and been a member of several internet forums for even longer. Trust me, I know how the internet works: people with different opinions meet, and clash occasionally. Some are even there for the clashing to begin with.
Like in real life, I am friends with different types of people on the internet, too. I love it, love discussions, love the fact that we have different opinions at times.
What I don't love, however, is drama. Sometimes though, I get caught up in it. It's never about me personally, I usually enter to defend a friend or an opinion I consider worth defending. "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything", after all.
I'm that kind of person you can insult and attack all you want, I don't care that much, but harm my friends, and I will get all protective.
As I said, I'm friends with a bunch of very different (yet very lovely and amazing) people, so sometimes conflicts cause me to get caught up between the lines, or between two sides I can equally see, two people I'm equally friends with. In such a case, I either stay neutral or pick the side I can see better, regardless of who I'm friends with longer and such things...
And until this day, I never lost a friend over it, and I never got insulted or attacked on a really personal level (except one time by a user on FFnet who decided to just call me names for no reason, but that was rather ridiculous).
However, today, I was in for a surprise.
To those who don't know, this is the conflict:
http://amarissia.livejournal.com/129690.html (started here)
http://amarissia.livejournal.com/129952.html (continued here)
I'm friends with both Amarissia, who received a review to her story, and Gabriel, the reviewer. Knowing what I know about both of them, and given my personal, very deep connection to Gabriel, I just had to post a comment.
My initial reaction was this:
Ahm... honestly, I spent about ten minutes just staring at the screen, wondering what the hell I'm going to do now... I knew I had to post something, but I had no idea what and how... I... just...
Sorry, but honestly, I'm shaking. I hope you will forgive me for stating my honest opinion on this matter, but I just HAVE TO. I felt like my heart will explode otherwise...
I've known you for a long time, Amarissia, and I've followed you and your work, but I've never expected that one day I would read something like this from you. I'm not talking about the fact that you say the criticism you received is unjustified.
But why can't someone disagree? Every published writer is faced with criticsm at some point, often harsh criticism at that, and the art is to rise above it and not become personal. I know it's hard, but that's also part of what being a writer means.
Besides, it's not so much the content that bothers me, but your choice of words...
I remember a while back when you received your first negative comment ever.
By a person who didn't even have the guts to sign in, and never explained their reasons for hating your writing.
Back then, did you curse? Did you insult them?
No, you didn't... You were upset, yes, but that was it.
Now here we have a person who not only signs his review, but also tries to explain his motives. And he never ever swears or insults you, he tries to stay polite throughout.
Yes, you might not agree with him, but if you can state your opinion, why can't he? You are telling him not tell you how your characters behave, but at the same time, you tell him what to feel about a trauma that happened to him, and basically to shut up and not state his opinion. Yes, not all people who were raped are the same. But that also means all their opinions are equal, and none is 'better' or 'more valid' than the other.
And honestly, telling a person with SEVERE psychological problems to go and die??? I don't know what to say, actually... other than I really can't believe I just read that. I have no words...
http://amarissia.livejournal.com/129690.html?thread=2559898#t2559898
My final reaction as of today was this:
Seriously, you (refering to the previous post) just made the point I wanted to be made so badly, the point I wanted to make myself but found no suiting words to do so.
I was thinking all day about how I could word it so that people would finally see it was never about trolling (who in their right mind would pick an author that popular, with such a huge fanbase for trolling anyway?) or getting an author to change their story to fit a certain taste, but all I came up with was not good enough, not good enough not to be twisted and shrugged off yet again.
If Amarissia had just spoken to Gabriel in private as he requested, or had just posted her second entry with the explanations instead of the Frowny Face one, or had at least taken out the words 'motherfucker' and 'go die', I personally would have never ever posted a single comment on this matter.
From the beginning on, I never expected Amarissia to agree and say "Yes, the review is right; I should have never written the story." I never expected her to change a thing.
In a similar way, I never expected her friends and fans to watch quietly instead of defending her and the story.
All I expected was a little bit of respect towards a person who dared to pour his heart out and invested time in writing what he believed to be constructive criticism. Is this really too much to ask these days? Or does it all depend on who you are friends with now?
The reason this turned into a big emotional fight in the end was exactly because feelings had been hurt and people felt the need to stand up for what they believed to be right and defend 'their side' (often without even knowing the facts - like reading the review and the story in question), and yes, there were mistakes made on both sides. And in the end, people simply joined just for the drama and to continue an old war.
Sorry, but that is definitely how it looks to me. I freely admit it escalated there, but ON BOTH SIDES. There is not 'right' and 'wrong' here, like in a real war, in the end both sides lose, no matter how much each side tries to sell the outcome as their victory.
However, you should no ignore where it all started, and simply write it off as a 'trolling' incicent. That would be blind, self-righteous and downright wrong.
(And this will be my final statement. I have nothing else to say as of now.)
http://amarissia.livejournal.com/129952.html?thread=2624928#t2624928
You are free to read through all the posts and all my additional comments, but all the time, I never changed my opinion, which has always been the one expressed in the two posts quoted above. I was always there for Gabriel, and because of the hostile reaction to his review (more precisely the insults), never for any other reason or person.
Amarissia and I also talked via PM, and I explained my reasons to her there.
Let me also point out that I never had any hard feelings towards any of the people involved. Believe it or not, I can agree to disagree, and respect other opinions, as long as my own is expected in return. This is what I told ravensilver (who I had a totally friendly conversation with at some point in the past, also on Amarissia's journal) and ardwynna_m (who decided to fiercely hate me ever since a past conflict where I dared to disagree with her; and even defriended another LJ user without an explanation and obviously just because that person is also friends with Gabriel and me, and spoke up on his behalf, too).
I had conversations with both, but stopped when I realized there was no point. For me personally, the issue was over.
My final comment to ravensilver was not even about the initial conflict, but about the contrast between reality and fiction (she basically said fiction and reality where totally different matters, therefore 'anything goes' in fiction. Details can be read in the thread):
Interesting.
"It's fiction" = the universal excuse for everything.
So by your argumentation, it would be ok if I wrote a blatanty sexist or openly racist story, or one that - just an example - belittles or denies the holocaust, just because my muse tells me so and hey, it's fiction?
Just wonder why no publisher in their right mind will touch said story then... and why people on the net would most likely flame me relentlessly for uploading it.
Or why celebreties and other 'real existing people' would sue me if I wrote stories about them that show them in compromizing situations, but are oh so clearly fictional, because they never did this?
The flaw in your logic is that you assume everyone can judge what's fictional and what not... true, the characters and events might be, but there are always things that exist in real life, and at least some readers will assume it's a realitic description.
http://amarissia.livejournal.com/129952.html?thread=2617504#t2617504
(By the way, she never answered the questions I raised.)
As I said, for me, the issue was solved, but apparently not for ravensilver, and especially not for ardwynna_m.
(Let me make a prediction here: if anyone of them is going to comment - which I doubt - it's just to tell me that I'm a stalker for looking at the journal, and I had no business doing so in the first place. Well, it's still a public journal...)
Today, I looked at ravensilver's journal, and found this thread http://ravensilver.livejournal.com/174677.html about the entire incident. I briefly looked it over, finding the expected conspiracy theories and such, didn't really care, until I noticed my name there...
I let you be the judge of the following exchange taking place:
To enlarge the part in question:
(and mind you, ravensilver wrote her initial comment inquiring about me exactly 12 minutes after she assured Amarissia that she would stop the war and move on - as to be seen in this thread http://amarissia.livejournal.com/130228.html )
There is quite a lot I could say about this.
But I won't. I think this entry pretty much speaks for itself. Everyone can look up what I said on Amarissia's two posts, and then decide whether I deserve to be called "just another sock" or "a very dedicated, passive-aggressive ass-licker", or not.
Thanks to ice_lady for her statement though. It's appreciated.
The only thing I'm going to say to ravensilver and especially to ardwynna_m is this:
As you can see from my profile here on LJ, I'm friends with nephilim_rising, twiggyboredom, mallvip, gavriilushka, but also with amarissia, chibipinkbunny, sphinxofthenile and ice_lady (not even mentioning a bunch of other people). And I'm proud of all of them.
We might not always share the same opinion, but I accept them and they accept me. This is why we are friends, and why I have been friends with some of them for years.
And as for your opinion about me:
So you think you can judge me?