Passing through but that's... actually an interesting way of looking at it.
I disagree with you in one way and one way only though, and that is that Castiel is not human. He is an angel, which the show tends to swing on the side of a giant ball of energy made to carry out God's orders, or indeed a very tempermental child that doesn't quite grasp how their actions are affecting the mudmonkeys below because well, they're mudmonkeys.
So in that sense, I don't see Castiel as "loving" Dean in a sexual way, nor do I see Castiel as sexual at all. His watching porn always struck me as more studying it than enjoying it - after all, the next thing he does when confronting a woman is to copy what he saw and kiss her, despite the fact that there was no physical attraction and he was making out with a demon. As for future!Castiel's orgies - it was a big old one-fingered-salute to his dad for abandoning him more so than enjoying the act of sex
( ... )
I can totally see that reading of Castiel, and actually agree with most of it. That's why I decribed his sexuality as "nascent". He's barely begun to understand it, or even know if he has one. That said, Dean clearly ascribes him one (with some horror), and the show codes him male, despite his ability to take a female vessel. So for the purposes of my argument here, he does have one by association, wether he actually feels it himself or not.
I do think there's a sexual element in Castiel's love for Dean, but not necessarily a human sexuality. He so often looks as though he wants to immolate himself on Dean's soul or something. It's hungry and obsessive, and I read that as having a sexual element. Obviously our reading varies on this, though, which is fine. :)
Thanks for the thoughtful comment. I'm always fascinated by the different ways in which people read the same characters.
Thanks for at least discussing it - I like reading meta but sometimes I'm the oddball commentator so it's nice to just talk. ^.^;
It's interesting to me because I'm still on the fence on how well the writers themselves have done with angels as different alien-esque beings. I'm still 50/50 on that. I do like that this season has sort of been Castiel being Castiel, and not necessarily the boy's Deus Ex Machina, which is what tends to hapen when the story needs a convenient setup. And naturally, because he is not the Winchesters, he does have a different viewpoint and motivation so that actually is one of the things that has worked well for me this season
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Thanks for the link to the meta; it sounds interesting. I'll check it.
I honestly like hearing other people's opinions, especially as my approach to meta is to put ideas out for discussion in order to figure out what I really think -- find the holes and fill them in, and work out where I went wrong, and if there's a better way to think about things. It's a starting point, not an end point for me.
I think your point about Castiel an authority is a good one. It doesn't negate the possibility of a sexual reading, as I can see how you could combine them, but it does offer another approach that makes sense. I'll think on it some more once I've read the essay.
I think this is an interesting analysis, but I do hope you watch the season, because I can't help but think your reading is very incomplete as you haven't seen the full context. I'm always wary of meta from people who say they haven't watched, and though you're very insightful in many ways here and have picked up on a lot, I'd really wonder what your opinion would be if you did watch the entirety
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Totally fair call. It is weird to write meta about a season I haven't watched, and I'm not surprised some of my analysis is off.
I find your points about Dean really interesting -- I plan to read your essay once I've girded my loins.
I wish I didn't have to be so careful about watching shows now, but when I'm emotionally invested in the characters, I tend to be easily triggered. It's frustrating. Actually, given what you've said about Dean, I may not be able to watch season 6 anyway. We'll see what my alpha watcher says once she's done.
I totally, totally understand your being careful! That said, I do think it might add a different facet to your analysis of Dean and Cas's interactions. I was also thinking of the exchange in 5.18, when Dean makes another couple of derogatory sexual jokes to Cas when he's lashing out at everyone.
I guess I'm saying I think you're on to something but I'm just not so sure I agree with your ultimate conclusions. Possibly this is because I do read Dean as pretty bi, in that he is interested in women and men but has major issues with his interest in men? So I don't necessarily get the feeling that Dean's reactions are show POV towards gay relationships. If that makes any kind of sense.
It does make sense. And to be fair, I don't think the show had much of a coherent point of view on gay relationships until this season, and only does now because they decided to use the Dean/Castiel relationship to foreshadow and further the Castiel plot-arc
( ... )
One thing that I really like about Show is that it is not about sexual relationships (which makes me pissed off with 80% of the fanfic 80% of the time, and um, no offense to you personally
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This is very interesting. I don't read fanfic so I can't speak to that, but your point about accepting Cas and Dean as platonic bro-loves is well made. However, the fault doesn't really lie with fandom IMO, but in the poor writing and confused messages inherent in the show's narrative and focus. Fandom can do whatever it likes with any relationship portrayed on screen whether it be platonic or romantic so that's a different matter (for me) (I'm sure there'll always be someone happy to write epic platonic Dean/Cas fanfic) The important thing for me is for the show to get it right ( obviously I'm only speaking for myself and don't expect them to be able to satisfy me and every other fan at one and the same time). I don't feel that they got it right with Castiel and Dean (and lots and lots of other things).
I'm sure there'll always be someone happy to write epic platonic Dean/Cas fanfic
I for one would love that writer forever.
Friendship romance is my favourite genre, and there isn't nearly enough of it, especially for Dean and Castiel. I would have much preferred if the show had stuck to bromance, and not brought in all the *nudge nudge* gay not-quite-subtext.
I agree with your point, though: I think a lot of subtext is unintentional, due to the large stable of writers and variety of takes on the characters you get in this kind of show.
That can be fun from a slash perspective, because it leaves a lot of room to play, but it's not so satisfying when watcing the raw show.
Yep. I watched the season finale, and for the first time EVER, I told my BFF's: "I think I don't love SPN anymore" Because no matter how you see it, turning Cas into the next big bad, when all he did (practically from the very beginning) was love Dean (and seriously, most people don't want to read it with slash goggles, no matter how obvious it is, but it even works in a completely platonic way) feels like a slap in the face. Nothing has made sense this season, not in the "our love is what will save us" kinda way that SPN had, which made it so wonderful It really has gone to a very dark and unhappy place, that is not noir, it's just hateful. And I don't like it anymore. So, as you've said:
"That said, if S7 actually resolves this plot by using their love to redeem Castiel (without immediately killing him off afterwards), I will be impressed and take back some of what I've said here. I doubt that will happen though."
Hello, just flying past, thanks for the post Cupidsbow,and I do hope yr able to watch S6 and maybe even enjoy some it. Just re the quote above: "That said, if S7 actually resolves this plot by using their love to redeem Castiel (without immediately killing him off afterwards), I will be impressed and take back some of what I've said here." Just...yes! EXACTLY what I was thinking. I'm not ashamed of watching SPN through both 'slashy fangirl' and 'canon'(?)lenses, but either way I love this idea.
I'd also like to point out another POV though. Cas doesn't necessarily HAVE to be the new "big bad". A continuous theme on this show has been redemption and saving people. All Sam and Dean have done all along is save people, innocents and each other, even if it was from one's self.
Yep, this. I couldn't stand to see a whole season of evil!CasGod being the 'big bad'. I want him to be the/a loving god (literally, in Dean's case)...maybe not straight away, but...well, Angelus did a lot worse and he got redeemed eventually...sorry, late here, am mixing my meta- fores. :)
Really, the queer-denial theory explains pretty much everything about the weird tension this season. It explains everyone acting in ethically dubious ways and somewhat out of character.
I don't think there's a specific theory afoot here. The season was much too poorly written for that.
Actually, I think the reason most everyone this season has been out of character is because 15 out of 22 episodes were written by people who weren't actually writers on the show until this season. Three writers were story editors (Andrew Dabb, Brett Matthews, Dan Loflin), one was a director (John Showalter), one was a script coordinator (David Reed), and a number were first-time SPN writers (Adam Glass, Nicole Snyder, Eric Charmelo, Jen Klein, Jackson Stewart).
So while it's nice to get a start somewhere, it's obvious Sera Gamble chose this season to allow new writers to stretch their legs, which resulted in a horrifically OOC mess.
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I disagree with you in one way and one way only though, and that is that Castiel is not human. He is an angel, which the show tends to swing on the side of a giant ball of energy made to carry out God's orders, or indeed a very tempermental child that doesn't quite grasp how their actions are affecting the mudmonkeys below because well, they're mudmonkeys.
So in that sense, I don't see Castiel as "loving" Dean in a sexual way, nor do I see Castiel as sexual at all. His watching porn always struck me as more studying it than enjoying it - after all, the next thing he does when confronting a woman is to copy what he saw and kiss her, despite the fact that there was no physical attraction and he was making out with a demon. As for future!Castiel's orgies - it was a big old one-fingered-salute to his dad for abandoning him more so than enjoying the act of sex ( ... )
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I do think there's a sexual element in Castiel's love for Dean, but not necessarily a human sexuality. He so often looks as though he wants to immolate himself on Dean's soul or something. It's hungry and obsessive, and I read that as having a sexual element. Obviously our reading varies on this, though, which is fine. :)
Thanks for the thoughtful comment. I'm always fascinated by the different ways in which people read the same characters.
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It's interesting to me because I'm still on the fence on how well the writers themselves have done with angels as different alien-esque beings. I'm still 50/50 on that. I do like that this season has sort of been Castiel being Castiel, and not necessarily the boy's Deus Ex Machina, which is what tends to hapen when the story needs a convenient setup. And naturally, because he is not the Winchesters, he does have a different viewpoint and motivation so that actually is one of the things that has worked well for me this season ( ... )
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I honestly like hearing other people's opinions, especially as my approach to meta is to put ideas out for discussion in order to figure out what I really think -- find the holes and fill them in, and work out where I went wrong, and if there's a better way to think about things. It's a starting point, not an end point for me.
I think your point about Castiel an authority is a good one. It doesn't negate the possibility of a sexual reading, as I can see how you could combine them, but it does offer another approach that makes sense. I'll think on it some more once I've read the essay.
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I find your points about Dean really interesting -- I plan to read your essay once I've girded my loins.
I wish I didn't have to be so careful about watching shows now, but when I'm emotionally invested in the characters, I tend to be easily triggered. It's frustrating. Actually, given what you've said about Dean, I may not be able to watch season 6 anyway. We'll see what my alpha watcher says once she's done.
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I guess I'm saying I think you're on to something but I'm just not so sure I agree with your ultimate conclusions. Possibly this is because I do read Dean as pretty bi, in that he is interested in women and men but has major issues with his interest in men? So I don't necessarily get the feeling that Dean's reactions are show POV towards gay relationships. If that makes any kind of sense.
(edited because i clearly need coffee)
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ROFLMAO
*goes back to reading the post now*
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I for one would love that writer forever.
Friendship romance is my favourite genre, and there isn't nearly enough of it, especially for Dean and Castiel. I would have much preferred if the show had stuck to bromance, and not brought in all the *nudge nudge* gay not-quite-subtext.
I agree with your point, though: I think a lot of subtext is unintentional, due to the large stable of writers and variety of takes on the characters you get in this kind of show.
That can be fun from a slash perspective, because it leaves a lot of room to play, but it's not so satisfying when watcing the raw show.
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I watched the season finale, and for the first time EVER, I told my BFF's: "I think I don't love SPN anymore"
Because no matter how you see it, turning Cas into the next big bad, when all he did (practically from the very beginning) was love Dean (and seriously, most people don't want to read it with slash goggles, no matter how obvious it is, but it even works in a completely platonic way) feels like a slap in the face.
Nothing has made sense this season, not in the "our love is what will save us" kinda way that SPN had, which made it so wonderful
It really has gone to a very dark and unhappy place, that is not noir, it's just hateful.
And I don't like it anymore.
So, as you've said:
"That said, if S7 actually resolves this plot by using their love to redeem Castiel (without immediately killing him off afterwards), I will be impressed and take back some of what I've said here.
I doubt that will happen though."
I doubt it too.
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I don't think there's a specific theory afoot here. The season was much too poorly written for that.
Actually, I think the reason most everyone this season has been out of character is because 15 out of 22 episodes were written by people who weren't actually writers on the show until this season. Three writers were story editors (Andrew Dabb, Brett Matthews, Dan Loflin), one was a director (John Showalter), one was a script coordinator (David Reed), and a number were first-time SPN writers (Adam Glass, Nicole Snyder, Eric Charmelo, Jen Klein, Jackson Stewart).
So while it's nice to get a start somewhere, it's obvious Sera Gamble chose this season to allow new writers to stretch their legs, which resulted in a horrifically OOC mess.
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