I felt a little the way you did right after watching it. Rather disappointed with the "simple" ghost episode (expecting something bigger), hard to accept the new young Dean (although as you said - superb actor) and no new theme or developments to discuss.
As you know I have been rewatching Season 1, and just finished Salvation and will be writing on Devil's Trap today... I still vividly remember John explaining to Sam about his original plans for Sam and Dean and why he had ended up being the drill-sergeant he was. I also remember John saying how he wanted Dean to have a home and Sam to go to school... I also know that in the next episode he will be giving his life for the boys. I think John-hate has developed over the seasons after John was actually dead, through episodes where Dean/Sam remember their childhood and writers tried to bring John down a notch... But those episodes do not have John's side of the story and I think it is unfair to judge him from those (especially since they are based on Dean's insecurities and manipulation by angels and demons).
This episode (9-7) also does not give John a voice to explain the true reason why he left Dean at the home. People who feel resentful toward John from previously may have a hard time seeing good in what he did but to judge him without understanding the true reason behind it all is also unfair.
As you said, the original idea for this episode was Dean at 14. A ripe age for rebelling against authority figures and finding your true self. And as a parent of a 14 year old, I would not be surprised if John had left Dean at the home for his own sake - because he felt guilty for having put Dean in the situation he had been and really did want him to be able to experience normal life for a bit - maybe so he could chose to stay or go, or maybe just as a break from responsibility. The fact that they decided to lie to Sam about it may also come from John's guilty feelings toward Dean and making the experience out to be one of heroic sacrifice rather than punishment.
It is also possible, as someone wrote in a fanfic(I've introduced it in my comm/blog http://supernuthome.livejournal.com if you want to take a look), that John had his hands full with his hunting and was afraid for the safety of his boys - so decided to leave Dean in the safe place where he could get three meals a day and get some attention he deserved (he's 14).
Anyway, that's my bit on John.
Looking back on the episode after a day or so, I remembered how I enjoyed those scenes we see so little of now a days - Sam and Dean on a doorstep, The Impala racing down the road, burning bodies in graveyards, seeing a ghost dissipate(I actually love those scenes)... And realized I was expecting so much from the episode (not really knowing what I was expecting but something really huge, you know...) that I wasn't enjoying the simple aspects that made Season 1 so special. People are always saying they wish Dean and Sam could just go back to hunting monsters like they used to, and when they do - then it is too boring :D Let's just enjoy it for the reminiscent episode that it is?
By the way, I thought it was kind of neat that the scene where Sam thanks Dean in the Impala is exactly the same as in Salvation. (I have the two screencaps at supernuthome.)
Yes, as I've written, I like it so much better when they're getting along and it's the world around them creating the drama.
As far as John is concerned, the actual father was out of the picture after the Season 2 premiere. But we're told his story through the eyes of others. In "Lucifer Rising" Bobby tells Dean he's a better man than his father. A running theme through the series is that John taught Dean to be a good soldier (and as a former Marine, I think John Winchester would be a pretty scary guy). "Daddy's blunt little instrument" was a phrase used in an earlier season.
I agree, hunting monsters is fun for an episode or two, but the show has gone way past that in terms of overall storyline.
As far as John is concerned, the actual father was out of the picture after the Season 2 premiere.
Exactly. People are hating him based on what other people said about him or how Dean felt and it is really biased. There is no real understanding of why John did what he did. By the way - it was not John that said Dean was a blunt intstrument... it was Dean himself, wasn't it? And Bobby saying Dean was more of a man than John ever was... was about how John pushed Sam away instead of trying to bring him back. But I don't think Bobby knew that John went to check on Sam whenever he could and although Sam and dad both were stubborn SOBs, they ended up understanding eachother and John respected the men that Sam and Dean had become in the end.
Bobby was unhappy about how John was raising his kids, but Bobby never had kids and never wanted them. If he had kids to raise after he had to kill his wife, do you think he could have done any better?
I guess people just want someone to hate real bad. It is really sad.
You're right, Dean's subconscious used that phrase. Here's the conversation between Bobby and Dean have in "Lucifer Rising". Don't forget, Bobby knew John for a long time.
Dean Winchester: I told him, "you walk out that door, don't come back" and he walked out anyway! That was his choice!
Bobby Singer: You sound like a whiny brat. No, you sound like your dad. Well, let me tell you something: Your dad was a coward.
Dean Winchester: My dad was a lot of things, Bobby, but a coward?
Bobby Singer: He'd rather push Sam away than reach out to him. That don't strike me as brave. You are a better man than your daddy ever was. So you do both of us a favor. Don't be him.
I know that conversation backward and forwards believe me:P
They are talking about a specific instance here - when John let Sam go and told him to not come back (before the start of Season 1) as Dean did in his fight with Sam. We knew the similarity of the circumstances as soon as we heard the words from Dean - right? Because those words are shouted by Sam to John in Dead Man's Blood "You're the one who said don't come back Dad, you closed that door not me."
Bobby is trying to make a point here which is not to put John down, but to expect more from Dean. To help him mend things when time was of the essence. He knows that Dean looks up to his dad, so he is trying to "shock" him into action - as it were - challenge him to be better than dad. (since "you sound like a whiny brat" didn't get the reaction he wanted :P)
We know for a fact that John may have given up on getting Sam to understand and given him that ultimatum when Sam left home to go to Stanford but- he also kept tabs on him to make sure he was alright at Stanford. He was not mad at Sam when they finally met in Shadow, and apologized to Sam for not understanding him and being too strict in Dead Man's Blood.
Dean, however, does not have the luxury in Season 4 to just wait for Sam to come back. He needs to act now if he is going to save Sam. Thus, this speech by Bobby.
As you know I have been rewatching Season 1, and just finished Salvation and will be writing on Devil's Trap today... I still vividly remember John explaining to Sam about his original plans for Sam and Dean and why he had ended up being the drill-sergeant he was. I also remember John saying how he wanted Dean to have a home and Sam to go to school... I also know that in the next episode he will be giving his life for the boys. I think John-hate has developed over the seasons after John was actually dead, through episodes where Dean/Sam remember their childhood and writers tried to bring John down a notch... But those episodes do not have John's side of the story and I think it is unfair to judge him from those (especially since they are based on Dean's insecurities and manipulation by angels and demons).
This episode (9-7) also does not give John a voice to explain the true reason why he left Dean at the home. People who feel resentful toward John from previously may have a hard time seeing good in what he did but to judge him without understanding the true reason behind it all is also unfair.
As you said, the original idea for this episode was Dean at 14. A ripe age for rebelling against authority figures and finding your true self. And as a parent of a 14 year old, I would not be surprised if John had left Dean at the home for his own sake - because he felt guilty for having put Dean in the situation he had been and really did want him to be able to experience normal life for a bit - maybe so he could chose to stay or go, or maybe just as a break from responsibility. The fact that they decided to lie to Sam about it may also come from John's guilty feelings toward Dean and making the experience out to be one of heroic sacrifice rather than punishment.
It is also possible, as someone wrote in a fanfic(I've introduced it in my comm/blog http://supernuthome.livejournal.com if you want to take a look), that John had his hands full with his hunting and was afraid for the safety of his boys - so decided to leave Dean in the safe place where he could get three meals a day and get some attention he deserved (he's 14).
Anyway, that's my bit on John.
Looking back on the episode after a day or so, I remembered how I enjoyed those scenes we see so little of now a days - Sam and Dean on a doorstep, The Impala racing down the road, burning bodies in graveyards, seeing a ghost dissipate(I actually love those scenes)... And realized I was expecting so much from the episode (not really knowing what I was expecting but something really huge, you know...) that I wasn't enjoying the simple aspects that made Season 1 so special. People are always saying they wish Dean and Sam could just go back to hunting monsters like they used to, and when they do - then it is too boring :D Let's just enjoy it for the reminiscent episode that it is?
By the way, I thought it was kind of neat that the scene where Sam thanks Dean in the Impala is exactly the same as in Salvation. (I have the two screencaps at supernuthome.)
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As far as John is concerned, the actual father was out of the picture after the Season 2 premiere. But we're told his story through the eyes of others. In "Lucifer Rising" Bobby tells Dean he's a better man than his father. A running theme through the series is that John taught Dean to be a good soldier (and as a former Marine, I think John Winchester would be a pretty scary guy). "Daddy's blunt little instrument" was a phrase used in an earlier season.
I agree, hunting monsters is fun for an episode or two, but the show has gone way past that in terms of overall storyline.
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Exactly. People are hating him based on what other people said about him or how Dean felt and it is really biased. There is no real understanding of why John did what he did. By the way - it was not John that said Dean was a blunt intstrument... it was Dean himself, wasn't it? And Bobby saying Dean was more of a man than John ever was... was about how John pushed Sam away instead of trying to bring him back. But I don't think Bobby knew that John went to check on Sam whenever he could and although Sam and dad both were stubborn SOBs, they ended up understanding eachother and John respected the men that Sam and Dean had become in the end.
Bobby was unhappy about how John was raising his kids, but Bobby never had kids and never wanted them. If he had kids to raise after he had to kill his wife, do you think he could have done any better?
I guess people just want someone to hate real bad. It is really sad.
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Dean Winchester: I told him, "you walk out that door, don't come back" and he walked out anyway! That was his choice!
Bobby Singer: You sound like a whiny brat. No, you sound like your dad. Well, let me tell you something: Your dad was a coward.
Dean Winchester: My dad was a lot of things, Bobby, but a coward?
Bobby Singer: He'd rather push Sam away than reach out to him. That don't strike me as brave. You are a better man than your daddy ever was. So you do both of us a favor. Don't be him.
Reply
They are talking about a specific instance here - when John let Sam go and told him to not come back (before the start of Season 1) as Dean did in his fight with Sam. We knew the similarity of the circumstances as soon as we heard the words from Dean - right? Because those words are shouted by Sam to John in Dead Man's Blood "You're the one who said don't come back Dad, you closed that door not me."
Bobby is trying to make a point here which is not to put John down, but to expect more from Dean. To help him mend things when time was of the essence. He knows that Dean looks up to his dad, so he is trying to "shock" him into action - as it were - challenge him to be better than dad. (since "you sound like a whiny brat" didn't get the reaction he wanted :P)
We know for a fact that John may have given up on getting Sam to understand and given him that ultimatum when Sam left home to go to Stanford but- he also kept tabs on him to make sure he was alright at Stanford. He was not mad at Sam when they finally met in Shadow, and apologized to Sam for not understanding him and being too strict in Dead Man's Blood.
Dean, however, does not have the luxury in Season 4 to just wait for Sam to come back. He needs to act now if he is going to save Sam. Thus, this speech by Bobby.
Does that make sense?
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