Well, let me point you to your own guidelines on Gossamer. :D Under What is Acceptable; What is Not: - The story must not plagiarize any other source.
Seems pretty straightforward and simple. So why doesn't FFN say something that clear?
--no plagiarism. First offense, lifetime ban.
They do say Failure to comply with site rules will result in the removal of stories and/or suspension of account.
Is 'suspension of account' the same as a ban? Or can the 'writer' simply start a new account under a new penname and keep playing?
Or do you think it's a case of trying to avoid what could be a buttload of work? You've found cases of simply find and replace which is pretty open and shut plagiarism. But do they fear some landslide of whiners, saying MY OPUS, HARRY POTTER HAS A BABY HAS BEEN STOLEN BY THIS OTHER BITCH IN HER FIC, HARRY IS PREGGERS!!!11! where they have to sort through all this crap to find reality in the middle?
Maybe they're just trying to cover as many bases as possible with their more vaguely worded line, but in any case, the real problem is that they aren't doing anything about the plagiarism, obvious find and replace, or interpretative.
There are different definitions of plagiarism out there.
I'll point you at today's version of the debate over on stop_plagiarism. Based on the definition that the admins there use, I can see them being hesitant to declare that plagiarism. It's copyright infringement, but it's credited. It's still banned under the way that FFN's guidelines are written. Not necessarily under the way Gossamer's are written, although I have pulled stuff like that under similar circumstances.
The idea of "banning" someone in the online world, unfortunately, is pretty quaint. I can't really ban anyone from submitting to Gossamer (as long as they're willing to go through the effort of creating a new penname and setting up a new e-mail account--how would I even know?). I can say that I won't accept any further submissions from that e-mail address with that associated name. Basically the same thing as suspension of account: you can't use that account anymore.
And, I'd hope that something like that "story" wouldn't have gotten onto Gossamer in the first place. If I'd noticed something like that while organizing files or databasing . . . I'd write the "author" a politely nasty e-mail explaining that YOU DON'T DO THINGS LIKE THAT and trashed the file.
But there can be a lot of gray when dealing with accusations of plagiarism--there always has been. I actually kind of ruined a relationship with an author I actually had considered a friend when I refused to "protect" a widely-known original character she had created. She wanted me to declare any stories that used that character as plagiarism, remove them, and ban the authors, we talked about it among the admins and refused.
More than one author has plagiarized tons of dialogue from another fannish source, without attribution. If she'd attributed, it moves out of the realm of direct plagiarism. But the copied dialogue is often 75%-90% of the story. So, what is it when 90% of your story is dialogue copied from another television show/another fandom, but it's attributed to that show?
I'm totally watching stop_plagiarism now! What a great idea for a comm, although it does seem like shoveling sand in the desert, I'm sure.
The MP situation is B.S. How, in all that is holy, could someone feel as though putting a disclaimer on their actions makes it all right? And I like the calls for a sequel! Guess the 'author' is going to have to wait for Missy to write one, er?
I have to wonder if I have my own definition of plagiarism, as you say, where the gray areas start. I'll use a similar situation or element of another author but freely admit to it.
Case in point recently. I wrote a sex against window between A/R in BSG, taken from Terma99's great MSR set in San Francisco. Hopefully I didn't steal anything more than the setup--my memory is horrible--but if I'd used dialogue or even descriptive language of another author, I consider that plagiarism.
It's tough sometimes as a writer. You see that absolutely perfect description for something or that one great line of dialogue and it's tempting. But I figure a) if it's so damn good, everyone else is going to remember it, b) it wouldn't feel good because it wasn't your work. I cannot even fathom how someone can use another author's thousands of words when I can't even justify using three.
I'm astonished that you have an author using another writer's dialogue and considering that original work. It's dialogue! Yet I'll transcribe episode scenes for a post-episode fic, but because I use my own descriptions and inner thoughts for the characters, I do consider that original work. Am I right?
The Ozmandayus situation in Buffy versus XF a few years back showed exactly what a powder keg that can become--I personally identified at least one hundred XF stories he plagiarized across his stories, but he was so entrenched in his fannish circle that the vast majority of his readers really didn't give a damn.
Damn, I miss all the best drama! It's syntax6's job to keep me up to date and obviously she's failing me!
I'm astonished that you have an author using another writer's dialogue and considering that original work. It's dialogue! Yet I'll transcribe episode scenes for a post-episode fic, but because I use my own descriptions and inner thoughts for the characters, I do consider that original work. Am I right?
That's where it all becomes a matter of where you draw the line, sometimes per piece of fiction.
Say you have an author that writes a "missing thoughts" fic for some XF episode, 80% of it is the dialogue from the scene, with some character's thoughts added in (this is a fairly common kind of fic in any fandom, I think). It's a post episode, we all know where the dialogue came from. If only 20% of it is original, most readers probably think "ok, uncreative" and move on. I would consider that type of fic to be boring and unoriginal, but not plagiarism.
But say that an author instead takes a scene from Buffy and does the same. In some ways that might be a little more creative, under copyright law it's probably equally an infringement, but it feels more skeevy to me EVEN if it's attributed. Especially if it's only say, 20% or less original work. It's boring, unoriginal, and skeevy.
Now say the author does it and doesn't attribute the Buffy dialogue. You point me at that, that will be removed. That's wrong.
Be glad you missed Ozmandayus. That ranks as possibly the absolute worse case of widespread plagiarism I think fandom has ever had. Over 4 years, he "wrote" hundreds of stories in Buffy fandom. On average, he seems that he plagiarized 4-5 xf stories per short story; 2-3 per chapter of longer story. None of the short stories I looked at contained any original work: they were always a patchwork of xf stories.
He also appears to have plagiarized wiki articles, news paper articles, etc.
I say that I identified about 100 stories he plagiarized--that was in the 20-25 stories I investigated personally. That was maybe 10% of what he wrote before he was finally exposed. And his fan base basically told XF to go screw off.
He's still writing (under a different name, but one associated with his former penname). Nowadays he appears to be plagiarizing romance novels instead.
Seems pretty straightforward and simple. So why doesn't FFN say something that clear?
--no plagiarism. First offense, lifetime ban.
They do say Failure to comply with site rules will result in the removal of stories and/or suspension of account.
Is 'suspension of account' the same as a ban? Or can the 'writer' simply start a new account under a new penname and keep playing?
Or do you think it's a case of trying to avoid what could be a buttload of work? You've found cases of simply find and replace which is pretty open and shut plagiarism. But do they fear some landslide of whiners, saying MY OPUS, HARRY POTTER HAS A BABY HAS BEEN STOLEN BY THIS OTHER BITCH IN HER FIC, HARRY IS PREGGERS!!!11! where they have to sort through all this crap to find reality in the middle?
Maybe they're just trying to cover as many bases as possible with their more vaguely worded line, but in any case, the real problem is that they aren't doing anything about the plagiarism, obvious find and replace, or interpretative.
Reply
I'll point you at today's version of the debate over on stop_plagiarism. Based on the definition that the admins there use, I can see them being hesitant to declare that plagiarism. It's copyright infringement, but it's credited. It's still banned under the way that FFN's guidelines are written. Not necessarily under the way Gossamer's are written, although I have pulled stuff like that under similar circumstances.
The idea of "banning" someone in the online world, unfortunately, is pretty quaint. I can't really ban anyone from submitting to Gossamer (as long as they're willing to go through the effort of creating a new penname and setting up a new e-mail account--how would I even know?). I can say that I won't accept any further submissions from that e-mail address with that associated name. Basically the same thing as suspension of account: you can't use that account anymore.
Reply
But there can be a lot of gray when dealing with accusations of plagiarism--there always has been. I actually kind of ruined a relationship with an author I actually had considered a friend when I refused to "protect" a widely-known original character she had created. She wanted me to declare any stories that used that character as plagiarism, remove them, and ban the authors, we talked about it among the admins and refused.
More than one author has plagiarized tons of dialogue from another fannish source, without attribution. If she'd attributed, it moves out of the realm of direct plagiarism. But the copied dialogue is often 75%-90% of the story. So, what is it when 90% of your story is dialogue copied from another television show/another fandom, but it's attributed to that show?
Reply
The MP situation is B.S. How, in all that is holy, could someone feel as though putting a disclaimer on their actions makes it all right? And I like the calls for a sequel! Guess the 'author' is going to have to wait for Missy to write one, er?
I have to wonder if I have my own definition of plagiarism, as you say, where the gray areas start. I'll use a similar situation or element of another author but freely admit to it.
Case in point recently. I wrote a sex against window between A/R in BSG, taken from Terma99's great MSR set in San Francisco. Hopefully I didn't steal anything more than the setup--my memory is horrible--but if I'd used dialogue or even descriptive language of another author, I consider that plagiarism.
It's tough sometimes as a writer. You see that absolutely perfect description for something or that one great line of dialogue and it's tempting. But I figure a) if it's so damn good, everyone else is going to remember it, b) it wouldn't feel good because it wasn't your work. I cannot even fathom how someone can use another author's thousands of words when I can't even justify using three.
I'm astonished that you have an author using another writer's dialogue and considering that original work. It's dialogue! Yet I'll transcribe episode scenes for a post-episode fic, but because I use my own descriptions and inner thoughts for the characters, I do consider that original work. Am I right?
The Ozmandayus situation in Buffy versus XF a few years back showed exactly what a powder keg that can become--I personally identified at least one hundred XF stories he plagiarized across his stories, but he was so entrenched in his fannish circle that the vast majority of his readers really didn't give a damn.
Damn, I miss all the best drama! It's syntax6's job to keep me up to date and obviously she's failing me!
Reply
That's where it all becomes a matter of where you draw the line, sometimes per piece of fiction.
Say you have an author that writes a "missing thoughts" fic for some XF episode, 80% of it is the dialogue from the scene, with some character's thoughts added in (this is a fairly common kind of fic in any fandom, I think). It's a post episode, we all know where the dialogue came from. If only 20% of it is original, most readers probably think "ok, uncreative" and move on. I would consider that type of fic to be boring and unoriginal, but not plagiarism.
But say that an author instead takes a scene from Buffy and does the same. In some ways that might be a little more creative, under copyright law it's probably equally an infringement, but it feels more skeevy to me EVEN if it's attributed. Especially if it's only say, 20% or less original work. It's boring, unoriginal, and skeevy.
Now say the author does it and doesn't attribute the Buffy dialogue. You point me at that, that will be removed. That's wrong.
Be glad you missed Ozmandayus. That ranks as possibly the absolute worse case of widespread plagiarism I think fandom has ever had. Over 4 years, he "wrote" hundreds of stories in Buffy fandom. On average, he seems that he plagiarized 4-5 xf stories per short story; 2-3 per chapter of longer story. None of the short stories I looked at contained any original work: they were always a patchwork of xf stories.
He also appears to have plagiarized wiki articles, news paper articles, etc.
I say that I identified about 100 stories he plagiarized--that was in the 20-25 stories I investigated personally. That was maybe 10% of what he wrote before he was finally exposed. And his fan base basically told XF to go screw off.
He's still writing (under a different name, but one associated with his former penname). Nowadays he appears to be plagiarizing romance novels instead.
Reply
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