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Aug 15, 2005 22:23

do the right thing

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sweet_october August 16 2005, 05:48:48 UTC
i hope what i think is the right thing...is.

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essius August 16 2005, 06:53:29 UTC
Maybe we should all ask Jesus what the right thing is. : )

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sven420 August 16 2005, 07:31:17 UTC
maybe we dont need a crutch...

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essius August 16 2005, 07:43:19 UTC
It's logically possible that you don't need a crutch, but it's also logically possible that you do. For it's conceivable that you are in fact spiritually and morally crippled, and that you are blinded to this fact by your self-willed persistence in wickedness.

Now, when it comes to spiritual things, who has more credibility? David Heckman-or Jesus of Nazareth. Well, it's certainly a tough call, because Mr. Heckman has done so many miracles in his life, and has shown himself to be so wonderfully upright in all that he's done. But I don't know, Jesus has done a few noteworthy things. I mean, I know it's not much, but he did resurrect from the dead. Okay, maybe that doesn't compare to what David's done, but I think I'm going to have to trust Jesus when it comes to spirituality and moral well-being. Because I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and I know he would never lie to me. But as for David Heckman-what has he done?

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essius August 16 2005, 14:56:06 UTC
If you were looking for a logical argument, sorry. Not all speech about spiritual matters revolves around demonstrative (or even probabilistic) argument, and thank God for that.

And what if there is insufficient evidence for God's existence for the skeptic or evidentialist? Does that count as reason not to believe in God? Not for me and for others who have a different total evidence for God's existence. The inability to prove God's existence through argument doesn't show that God doesn't exist.

And yes, what you say is conceivable. But it's also false.

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cripz August 17 2005, 02:17:45 UTC
if you don't have rational evidence, why do you even bother talking to people about god? you shouldn't even waste your time mentioning jesus' name. everyone will just have to wait for the moment that god imparts the wisdom of the holy spirit on them like he did for you.

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essius August 17 2005, 03:22:37 UTC
As many an evangelical will tell you, success in witnessing is simply taking the initiative to share Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit and leaving the results to God. Also, nowhere in Scripture does it say to preach the Word "only if you've mastered the most probable forms of the cosmological, teleological and moral arguments."

Isn't your belief that I shouldn't waste my time mentioning Jesus' name without rational evidence? If so, you shouldn't waste your time mentioning that I shouldn't waste my time mentioning Jesus' name.

Why assume that God's Spirit wouldn't work in the believers in whom it indwells?

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cripz August 18 2005, 01:21:40 UTC
it's pointless to preach to people who want reasonable evidence if you have no reasonable evidence. if you're saying you have "different total evidence for God's existence", the only way anyone else will get that evidence (which i'm assuming is the holy spirit) is if god or the holy spirit comes to them personally. no need for your intervention. it'd be pointless.

if god's "spirit" works in someone else but never comes to me.. i don't know if what they're feeling is actually a legitmate expression of any deity/creator/god. i'm not going to take anyone else's word for anything when it comes to such serious matters.

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essius August 18 2005, 02:26:39 UTC
if you're saying you have "different total evidence for God's existence", the only way anyone else will get that evidence (which i'm assuming is the holy spirit) is if god or the holy spirit comes to them personally. no need for your intervention. it'd be pointless.

Total evidence is total, not just the internal witness of the Holy Ghost.

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cripz August 18 2005, 18:31:21 UTC
"If you were looking for a logical argument, sorry."
"..not just the internal witness of the Holy Ghost"

so now you're saying that there is some kind of logical argument in addition to the holy spirit or something??

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essius August 18 2005, 19:10:27 UTC
Sure. Knowing the faith by the Spirit's witness doesn't preclude showing the faith by argument. It just doesn't necessitate it. (In other words, if I cannot present a rationally compelling argument for Christianity, it may still be the case that I am rationally justified in believing in Christianity.)

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cripz August 19 2005, 04:43:10 UTC
why'd you say you had no rationally compelling argument to offer, then?

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essius August 19 2005, 06:09:46 UTC
Where did I say that, and what was the context?

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cripz August 19 2005, 08:29:02 UTC
read the thread "If you were looking for a logical argument, sorry. Not all speech about spiritual matters revolves around demonstrative (or even probabilistic) argument, and thank God for that."

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essius August 19 2005, 13:27:51 UTC
I didn't say I didn't have one to present; that was implicative of my not wanting to give one at the moment.

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