Comments | cressidarambles: Éowyn's Motivation

cressidarambles

Éowyn's Motivation

Jan 24, 2008 12:25

sistermagpie recently asked me...

What would you say to the charge that Eowyn only goes into battle to prove herself to Aragorn, whom she was pining after, or that she went into battle for self-pity?I don't believe there is any currency to the idea that Éowyn goes into battle to "prove herself" to Aragorn. In the first place, the issues between them have ( Read more... )

eowyn, essays

Comments 19

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cressidarambles January 25 2008, 04:21:07 UTC

Hee hee, thanks for the vote of support! :)

roh_wyn January 24 2008, 19:02:44 UTC

Interesting!

I agree that she is not attempting to prove herself to Aragorn, but I do think her hopelessness is (at least partly) tied to Aragorn snubbing her affection. In fact, I think that was a bigger part of her "death wish" (if you will) than the possibility of the impending Dark Age. She may have felt keenly that she needed to play a part in restoring Rohan's glory, as you suggest. But Theoden makes her his regent and she leaves her appointed post to ride off to battle. It was her responsibility to be part of Rohan's last stand (if it came to that), but she does not stay to protect her people. I have to think this is because her hopelessness is far greater than her sense of loyalty to Rohan, and her need to restore the House of Eorl to glory.

Yes, that's an awfully negative thing to say about Eowyn, but I think she's written as a bit of a glory hound (at least prior to meeting Faramir), and to me, it fits.

There. That should get the discussion going! ;)

cressidarambles January 25 2008, 03:55:43 UTC

I agree that Aragorn's rejection certainly sent her into a black mood, but I don't think her situation is as simple as "Waaaaah, that guy doesn't love me, so now I want to die." I think both causes of her despair are significant, and I stressed the impending Dark Age a bit more above mainly because I think it often tends to get overlooked in discussions like these. I think it's hard to say which was the bigger cause. Frankly, I suspect that either impetus on its own might have been enough to get her to snap and sneak off to war, even without the other one ( ... )

lilan14 January 25 2008, 08:43:32 UTC

...the poor woman must have been quite a mess emotionally at the time. I wonder whether even she could have sorted out and quantified all her motivations!

My thoughts exactly. She could have definitely used someone who'd sit down and talk it through with her, actually! (Which Faramir probably did later!)

roh_wyn January 25 2008, 21:35:54 UTC

The more I write about this, the more I think the poor woman must have been quite a mess emotionally at the time.

Oh, no doubt. No matter how you slice it, she had some serious issues to deal with, and frankly, I think her biggest problem was that she was desperately lonely. I don't think she had anyone to talk to, and certainly nobody to help her through her problems. I think that was the main reason she even was attracted to Aragorn. He struck her as someone who would understand her, help her.

This comment makes me think you actually agree with me more than you think you do.

Actually, I agree with most of what you had said in the OP. I just felt that maybe you had glossed over the Aragorn-related reason for Eowyn's actions, but I see now why that is.

Thread 6

sistermagpie January 24 2008, 19:33:48 UTC

Excellent! Do you mind if I link to this to the original discussion that brought this up?

I do agree somewhat with the person above me--she is a glory hound. But (and this was an issue in the original discussion I was in), I think that puts her in company with many male characters. Merry, for instance!

roh_wyn January 24 2008, 21:21:38 UTC

I think that puts her in company with many male characters. Merry, for instance!

Heh. Exactly, although I really was thinking more of Boromir!

cressidarambles January 25 2008, 03:56:16 UTC

By all means, feel free to link it anywhere you like! I welcome discussion.

lilan14 January 24 2008, 23:07:02 UTC

Hmm, I'd just like to add that Eowyn also thought she managed to find a way of coping with what she took for being stuck (after all, Theoden or others didn't only want her for cooking or cleaning). She seems to be searching for a way to break free all the time, her suicidal ride to battle being her ultimate attempt, and when that failed, I think it made her reassess her ideas very seriously. I think that in The Houses of Healing, she feels lost and confused much more than stuck and despairing, and I think that there, for once, she realizes it. I really have no trouble picturing her say to herself "What an idiot I am..."

Also, there are Gandalf's words in that same chapter, and he largely blames Grima. The wizard states quite clearly that Aragorn was not the main reason Eowyn did what she did. (The quote is quite long, and it's late over here; I can type it here later, if you want me to.)

Oh dear. I hope this is not too messy!!

cressidarambles January 25 2008, 04:20:24 UTC

Not too messy at all!

You make a good point about Gríma. I left him out of my summation above because I admit I forgot about him, but he's an important force in making her see Rohan as a run-down place that needed more glory.

It's also clear that her need for glory wasn't the deepest root cause of her troubles, because she got glory in her battle, and it didn't make her happy at all.

I think she is still feeling some despair at the beginning of her stay in the HoH. At first, she desperately wants to ride off with the army to have another crack at getting herself killed, and she mentions that she'd like to be like Théoden, who has "both honor and peace." But that fades after a few days of enforced inactivity and time to think, and then she reaches that stage of loss and confusion.

lilan14 January 25 2008, 08:38:27 UTC

I think she is still feeling some despair at the beginning of her stay in the HoH.

Oh, definitely. I would never say no to that. And I wouldn't really put her change down to inactivity only -- after all, she'd had some of that before she demanded to see Faramir, and it looked like it was starting to drive her up the wall. ;) Though maybe that was because she got better physically...and of course being subjected to enforced inactivity with Faramir is a totally different cup of tea...and can help change attitudes a lot... *chuckles*

aasaylva January 29 2008, 21:36:17 UTC

I've read the books once and seen the films as well, but I'm by no means an expert on LotR - so maybe I forgot something or got it confused. But as far as I remember, Eowyn's main problem seemed to be the fact she was a woman and was relegated to the side-lines because of it. In the book (IIRC)Theoden didn't give the reign to her, but to her brother. Aragorn tells her smoothly, as a daughter of kings, hers won't be a destiny of sitting there and wilting without ever doing anything - but doesn't say what he thinks WILL be in store for her. In fact, she always struck me as a woman who FEELS like a man (not in the sexual way, but as gender roles are perceived), but can't act upon it, because she was born in the wrong body for it. That's why her defence of Merry towards Eomer seems so heartfelt - she knows what she is talking about ( ... )

cressidarambles February 1 2008, 13:31:05 UTC

I just want you to know I've read this, and I have some comments, but I'm being eaten alive by work at the moment. I'll respond as soon as I can!

I'll just make one very fast point, which you can respond to if you like:

In the book, unlike the movie, the civilians who were left behind had actually, publicly asked for Éowyn to lead them while Théoden and Éomer went off to fight--and she had publicly agreed to do so. (In the movie, as you may recall, Théoden only asks her privately to do this.) So in the book, she did "forsake" them in an absolutely literal sense.

aasaylva February 1 2008, 16:06:42 UTC

Thanks for replying! Ah, there you are - I had a suspicion something might have escaped me. So yes, if Eowyn really promised to stay with her Rohirrim, she DID forsake them. Makes the question why she did so even more poignant. Am waiting for the rest of your reply - and good luck with the work load.

Okay, finally! cressidarambles February 6 2008, 05:38:50 UTC

Whew! I've started more than once to compose an answer to your comment, and always had to stop because my answer got too long and I ran out of time. I suspect I may have to write up another essay to tackle this fully, but I'll try to boil down my thoughts into something that I can finish tonight. Apologies if this comes out disjointed!

I agree with some of what you say. I do think that a lot of Éowyn's problems stemmed from having to stay cooped up at home. Gandalf says as much in the Houses of Healing chapter, when he's explaining her problems to Éomer.

However, if she had wanted to rule Rohan, IMO she would have stayed behind and done so when Éomer and Théoden went off to war.

I don't know if I'd agree that Éowyn feels like a man, but I might agree that she wants to do a "man's job." Actually, being asked to stay and rule was a man's job--just not the job she wanted. Aragorn points out that if she didn't do it, "some marshal or captain" would be given the job. It strikes me as quite a compliment that she was selected for ( ... )