DW S604 The Doctor's Wife & S605 The Rebel Flesh

[crabby_lioness]

Sorry folks, it's been a busy week and I never found the time to post this first one.

The Doctor's Wife

*big goofy grin*

Called it.  *checks date*  Almost four years ago to the day I posted a fanfic about the TARDIS being a communication-impaired Goddess who stole away with a Time Lord.  Not that I'm saying Neil Gaiman stole the idea from me, or even

Comments

[wight1984]

I could understand suggesting that it uses some general sci-fi tropes (then again, what sci-fi show doesn't?) but the idea that it's anything like a close rip off of Star Trek seems a bit of a stretch.

The fact that there is more than one thing going on at once that aren't directly connected? Hardly specific to Star Trek. Also, the Tardis didn't seem to be in any danger, it was just inaccessible.

I wouldn't have said that the clones did look like Odo, although they had similar body-twisting abilities but you could say that of Mr Fantastic from the Fantastic Five.

And the fact that the episodes 'monsters' aren't actually monsters that are out doing evil for evil's sake but just people with their own agenda is something I wish Who would do more of. Certainly less over-used than the monsters who actually are monsters, which is a trope I'm more or less sick of.

And I'm not sure we can complain seriously too much about re-use of props in a show that re-uses actors :oP

[crabby_lioness]

I could understand suggesting that it uses some general sci-fi tropes (then again, what sci-fi show doesn't?) but the idea that it's anything like a close rip off of Star Trek seems a bit of a stretch.

STC was the first to overuse them.

The fact that there is more than one thing going on at once that aren't directly connected? Hardly specific to Star Trek.

Once again, STC was the first to overuse it, making it a bad trope that's nearly 50 years old.

I wouldn't have said that the clones did look like Odo, although they had similar body-twisting abilities but you could say that of Mr Fantastic from the Fantastic Five.

Odo pioneered the plasticy face.

And I'm not sure we can complain seriously too much about re-use of props in a show that re-uses actors

You must be mistaking my review for someone else's. The reuse of the clone tank was the best part of the show, but it needed, no deserved a better plot to go with it.

[wight1984]

I think the problem is that the tropes you're talking about are so basic that it's not surprising that they're going to crop up over and over again.

[crabby_lioness]

Well of course. My point is, why re-use a bad trope that people have been holding up as an example of bad genre writing for 40 years? I remember reading essays dissecting the C-level multiple meaningless threats tropes from Star Trek back in the 70s, complete with the writers begging people never to use it again. I couldn't believe that a show as good as this would resort to something that substandard.

[wight1984]

The fact that people enjoy this kind of plot structure seems a good reason to not give up on it entirely.

It would be a bit tedious if it was every episode but I personally didn't find it problematic here. I enjoyed the episode, so did many others.

Can't please everyone of course and if you restricted yourself only to plot structures that pleased everyone then you'd just have to give up making television.

The idea of having two or more independent plot lines in one show really doesn't bother me. They've crafted the story in such a way that both plot lines make sense in light of the setting, so that's all good. The idea that it's a fundamentally bad idea strikes me as just wrong.

[crabby_lioness]

You can make two or more independent plots work when they're real independent plots. These were just more coincidentally concurrent problems piled on top of each other to up what was basically a non-existent threat. That's annoying.

While the Knight Errant format is built on a framework of coincidence (your Knight just happens to be in town when something interesting happens) there's a maximum limit to the number of coincidences that can occur within the same show before the audience starts laughing at it. This show was way over that number.

[wight1984]

In plot terms, the three things are obviously separate. The Doctor arrives, the gangers go walk about and the acid starts leaking. The setting however provides a single cause for all three, the storm.

It's not coincidence as written. The three plot elements were tied together quite nicely I'd say.

[crabby_lioness]

Sorry, the setup still relies on a convergence of coincidence that's not held together well. What's the acid doing there in the first place? Why do the flares effect the TARDIS? It stretches the suspension of disbelief a bit too thin.

[wight1984]

That's not really 'coincidence'. Coincidence is when two events happen together that relate to one another without a common cause

[crabby_lioness]

You don't appear to be reading my posts. I don't object to multiple plot lines per se; I often adore stories with multiple plot lines including those of Dickens. I dislike multiple bad plotlines being used to prop each other up because none of them present a credible threat by themselves.

[wight1984]

Why?

If one plot line was serious enough to carry the story, there would be no need for any others.

If you're going to have multiple plot lines then they all ought to contribute to the story without dominating it. Seems fair enough to me.

It's still not coincidence either way, which was at least part of your complaint.

[crabby_lioness]

If one plot line was serious enough to carry the story, there would be no need for any others.

EXACTLY. Now you're geting it. If one threat were serious enough to carry the story, the other plots could contribute to the story in other ways without causing a "nibbled to death by ducks" phenomenon.

[wight1984]

That doesn't imply that multiple plot lines are a bad thing.

If you had one plot line that does all the work then the others are just wasting space and should be scrapped. If you want to have multiple plot lines and events going on, they all need to take a share of the burden of carrying the episode.

[crabby_lioness]

*bangs head against wall*

I said one plot should be enough to carry the threat. That doesn't mean that the other plots are wasting space.

Take Blink for example. That was a story with multiple plots, but only one plot was a threat to life and limb. The plot with the Stone Angels was plenty threatening all by itself. But there were other plots concerning Sally's relationships with her friend and the two men in the story. Those plots didn't involve overt threats but they were hardly things that were "just wasting space and should be scrapped" and they did "take a share of the burden of carrying the episode."

This story would have been much better if it were tighter written and had just one plot carrying the threat instead of having to waste time explaining why three different things added up to a threat. That way there would have been more time could have been spent dealing with the Gangers and their ramifications.

[wight1984]

"I said one plot should be enough to carry the threat."

Which you've yet to justify in any other way than 'Star Trek already did it'.

"Take Blink for example. That was a story with multiple plots, but only one plot was a threat to life and limb. The plot with the Stone Angels was plenty threatening all by itself. But there were other plots concerning Sally's relationships with her friend and the two men in the story. Those plots didn't involve overt threats but they were hardly things that were "just wasting space and should be scrapped" and they did "take a share of the burden of carrying the episode.""

Blink had extra sub-plots but that's not really the point. I'm talking about the main structure of an episode.

"This story would have been much better if it were tighter written and had just one plot carrying the threat instead of having to waste time explaining why three different things added up to a threat. That way there would have been more time could have been spent dealing with the Gangers and their ramifications.I really

[crabby_lioness]

I used Star Trek as an example because I assume most people are familiar with it and most fans are familiar with it's essays analyzing the structures of genre fiction. There are probably similar essays analyzing the structures of DW plots, but I'm in America and I haven't read all of those.

I could get out my books of literary analysis and quote from the Masters on why a sloppy plot is a no-good very-bad idea, but I'm in mid-move and most of my library is not accessible. So I thought everyone would recognize Star Trek. Apparently I made a mistake there.