Mitchell's Convert Me Challenge

[t_h_mitchell]

1. Intro
I posted my original convert_me challenge 4 years ago today ( here). I think it's about time I rewrote it. :)

Comments

[grappleyo]

Well, ok. Then what do you mean that "all humans are not created equal"? I've only seen that used as a justification for capitalism, social darwinism, imperialism, and racial supremacy. Do you think some people were "created" to be on top and others "created" to serve them?

"Guns, Germs, and Steel", "On the Justice of Roosting Chickens", "Medical Apartheid", "American Apartheid" (the one by Mr. Wright but especially the one by Mr. Massey / Ms. Denton), "How Europe Underdeveloped Africa", "Lockdown America", "The Heart of Whiteness", "Democracy for the Few", "Toward an American Revolution: Exposing the Constitution and Other Illusions", "No Equal Justice", "Whitewashing Race", "What Uncle Sam Really Wants", "Freeing the World to Death", "Racist America", "Profit over People", "Merchants of Misery", "When Affirmative Action Was White", "Racism Without Racists". Read a book, any book, there are hundreds of others, hell read a newspaper for all I care. You can say you don't care about justice, you got yours, and leave it there. You might be an "asshole" (aka Republican), but w/e, nobody ever said that they needed your 'help'. Saying that some humans were simply created to be on top, however, is ignorant. I don't think you are that completely dense. The reason mass media sometimes plays lip service to "all people are created equal" (though mass media don't actually practice it in any degree), is because the alternative is so backwards it's about 100 years out of date for most anyone. All the evidence and history points the other way. That's all the advice I'm really going to give.

What is it that you do agree with Ms. Rand about? I'm progressive and I hate her due to her individualist capitalist views, what is it that you think redeems her? Or would you rather not get into that also?

[grappleyo]

That's a weird comment, because I didn't even mention skin color in this post or even in this community.

[noneuklid]

Er, you think that all humans WERE created equal?

Right. So that poor kid with fetal alcohol syndrome and abusive parents, he's going to grow up to be the next President.

Uh, no. He's probably not going to accomplish anything significant, and die young, lonely, and frustrated.

That's even an extreme example. What makes you believe that other people are your equals? They have the same "potential"? What does that even *mean*? There's a huge spectrum of human capability, and being lacking in one area is no guarantee that someone will be strong in another.

[grappleyo]

This is also a strange comment, not only because it is in reply to a comment about "skin color" but also because I never said shit about "potential", and I was talking about the equality of humanity, not the equality of individuals. But ok, sure...to use your ridiculous example, FASD kid with absusive parents and limited income.

Your wealth, your family, any decisions your mother made during pregnancy have no say on your worth as a human being. You might not be presidential material (and only a very small percentage of rich white older conservative males are), but you still have worth and dignity. TBH, I'll like a poor abused kid with FASD over George W any day of the week.

What makes you think someone is worth more because he or she is white, healthy, happy and middle class? More importantly, what makes you think that the poor abused kid with FASD doesn't deserve "help"? Most importantly, what makes you think s/he was "created" to be that way, and that s/he is somehow more deserving of his/her health, wealth, privledge, and hasn't received most of that through the exploitation and supression of others?

I'm not a "humanist", because I've seen too many humans are mostly like you or Jebana up there. I believe in the equality of human worth, I see inequality of circumstances, and I believe that such injustices need to be corrected. Get the FASD kid a good home and medical attention, just like anyone else should have. Better yet, give medical attention to the mother, so we can stop those problems before they start. Don't think anyone is worth "more" because he is healthy, well-adjusted, rich, and can grow up to be president. It is my opinion, governments should support all people, not just rich white ones, and more powerful nations have no business exploiting smaller ones. It is fact, however, that the peoples and nations on top are in no way more "worthy" of their status. If anything, usually the reverse is true.

[noneuklid]

What makes you think someone is worth more because he or she is white, healthy, happy and middle class?

Wtf? Who's bringing up skin color now? When did I say anything about what color anyone was?

It is fact, however, that the peoples and nations on top are in no way more "worthy" of their status. If anything, usually the reverse is true.

Ok. That's really all we needed to establish; you do not believe in the equality of humans. Why get outraged when someone else also does not?

[grappleyo]

Wtf? Who's bringing up skin color now? When did I say anything about what color anyone was?
Don't confuse race with skin color, ever. Two totally different issues. Race is one of the biggest issues of inequality in the United States. A black person isn't going to be president neither, and then some. For most of US history, black folk weren't even considered human. You can't talk about inequality and not mention race. That would be stupid, and you need to read that "Whitewashing Race" book. lmao.

Why get outraged when someone else also does not?
Did I say I was "outraged"? He equated the less worthy ones with the ones on the bottom who supposedly need "help", and the ones on the top doing the helping as the ones "created" to be that way. This is ignorant, and I think he needs to be educated.

That being said, I said that "if anything, the other way around" statement more out of anger, and I hope that if you read enough, you'll understand a little. I don't honestly believe in denying white people the right to vote, or denying rich people the right to medical treatment, or letting non-Western nations freely impose their will violently on Western nations, all the while saying they aren't "worth" equal treatment.

I apologize, and ideally, yes, I don't believe in revenge, just justice and equality.

[noneuklid]

Did I say I was "outraged"?

I don't recall you claiming the predicate 'personhood,' either. Should I assume you aren't something until you specify otherwise? Or, as you say...

That being said, I said that "if anything, the other way around" statement more out of anger...

perhaps it's reasonable for me to infer some things from the percieved tone.

You seem to be confusing equality of rights with equality of worth. That's rather irrelevant, however; with the statement I'm not a "humanist", because I've seen too many humans are mostly like you or Jebana up there, you've expressed almost exactly the same sentiment as t_h_mitchell.

Don't confuse race with skin color, ever. Two totally different issues.
This is also a strange comment, not only because it is in reply to a comment about "skin color"
That's a weird comment, because I didn't even mention skin color in this post or even in this community.
...

[grappleyo]

you've expressed almost exactly the same sentiment as t_h_mitchell.
Not at all, I wouldn't dream of saying that you are somehow less than me just because you aren't progressive. You're worth just as much, and I would never dream of putting you on any second class status or denying you help if you needed it. Humanism sugarcoats humanity, and looks at all that humanity does, looks to humanity for the answers--but humanity causes the problems too, and humanity doesn't always come to the right conclusions. I'm unsure of the title, basically, not at all for the same reasons as Jebana.

...
What "..."? You do know the difference between race and skin color, don't you? There are books about skin color, and that's mostly a female intraracial issue that is important and all, but not what I'm talking about when I say "white". OK?

[einprosess]

I was reading this thread and couldn't help thinking "Is kai's addon anywhere near completion?". Is it?

[einprosess]

I think I know what you're talking about. I don't like having too many things to focus on either. Good luck with that.

[t_h_mitchell]

If you're actually interested in my opinions on this topic (and I'm fairly sure you're not), see some of the comments I've made to others in this thread.

p.s. Don't assume everything is about race. I'm actually rather sick of listening to you bitch about that.

[grappleyo]

I was actually interested, now I'm actually afraid to find out more.

I read your comments, and uh, apparently, you deeply confused your personal issues with a very political ideal and you say inane shit like "I care about the people I trust" and "My equals are the ones I respect". L O L. Wow, TH MITCHELL! It's the most 12 year old clueless thing I've ever seen, and I pray you are capable of thinking on a larger scale than "people I respect", "people I trust", "people I loathe": otherwise we might be looking at a case of legal retardation. How the hell old are you supposed to be? lmao.

And how the hell is "everything about race"? Do you read a damn thing I say? I mentioned race once, and it is extremely relevant to any intelligent discussion of modern inequality. (In other worse: one that doesn't stop at "People who TH Mitchell likes, lol!")

I wasn't "bitching", I was mentioning it. Why the hell are you so threatened by that? Hm? Rhetorical question, because I know the answer too fucking damn well. lol. Most importantly, why the fuck should I care if you're sick of it? What do you want me to say, "poor mf baby"? Clearly, the real loser in America's continued history of racial oppression is Mitchell, because he has to listen to people "bitch". lol....seriously though, a single tear is running down my cheek as I type.

I'm sorry, Jeb, I realize you hold yourself in very high regard, but in the real world, your opinion isn't worth any more than anyone else's. The sooner you come to terms with that, the sooner you can make mature spiritual and political decisions. Good luck.

[grappleyo]

And sorry if any of that shit came off as harsh, and I hope I am misinterpreting you in some way. I do think that it would benefit you to mature a little first before you go looking at this sort of material, or you'll keep on hitting dead ends. If you're secure in that mindset, you might just want to look at generic selfism, egotism, or become a Republican.

[t_h_mitchell]

::sigh::