Independence Day and the pragmatics of patriotism

[melvin_udall]

After the cut is a somewhat long read. I feel it's worth it. A side note before the post:

At the close of the Constitutional Convention of 1787, Benjamin Franklin was queried as he left Independence Hall on the final day of deliberation as to what form of government the people of America would have. He responded to the crowd:

"A republic, if

Comments

[melvin_udall]

Deep.

[level_head]

Oho! I hadn't realized that this was the community. Considering the, ah, mixed population here, I'd guess that you won't get much support for the notion of American patriotism. ];-)

I expect that you will see variants of "being critical of the US is the best form of patriotism", which is right up there with "spitting on soldiers is the best way to show your support for the troops".

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[melvin_udall]

LOL. All true.

Loved the other contribution and links. Thanks!

[level_head]

Most excellent, sir!

I completely approve, and had this same speech in mind for my own LJ.

If you don't mind, I'll point folks to you instead, and re-visit Samuel Johnson's "patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" quote. It means exactly the opposite of what many today think.

You may find these comments on the book Starship Troopers interesting.

Best wishes, I join you in celebrating Independence Day.

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[melvin_udall]

Thank you.

Excellent link. I will have to read through those. It's also one of my favorites, as is Harsh Mistress.

[nevermind6794]

Is that quote Johnson's or Twain's? I found this quote on a couple of Twain websites:

"Citizenship should be placed above everything else, even learning. Is there in any college of the land a chair of citizenship where good citizenship and all that it implies is taught? There is not one -- that is, not one where sane citizenship is taught. There are some which teach insane citizenship, bastard citizenship, but that is all. Patriotism! Yes; but patriotism is usually the refuge of the scoundrel. He is the man who talks the loudest."-- speech, 5/14/1908

[level_head]

The quote was more than a century old when Samuel Clemens paraphrased it. And he has it wrong as well, though it may have suited his purpose to turn the original sense of it on its ear.

We don't have an abundance of patriotism, nor citizenship, in the US today -- so it seems to me. There is a difference, and we suffer from the dearth of each.

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[zarq]

Damn, it's been years since I read this. Excellent.

Thanks a lot for posting it.

[montanaisaleg]

I've only read this once, so this is just my first reaction to it, but as I read it I couldn't help thinking that something was missing. As I got closer to the end I realized what it was: Heinlein seems to be saying that duty and loyalty are, in and of themselves, moral traits. I agree that duty and loyalty are praiseworthy traits, but to say that the simple fact of duty and loyalty makes one a more moral person ignores the motivations that the person may have for his duty and loyalty. My loyalty to the CEO of my company could just be my way of advancing my own career. The CEO tells me "that guy is a threat to my job. Plant evidence of theft from the company in his desk so I can fire him. Do this and I'll promote you." I do so. That's showing loyalty (and to an extent a sense of duty), but it's not a moral act

[meus_ovatio]

It's called Confucious Say.

[bertro]

Contempt is held by soldiers for intellectuals just the same. This is not new, the old Greeks had it going between the blood soup eating Spartans and the other Greeks sitting around in togas thinking about stuff.

[bertro]

As a soldier in the Swiss army I developed contempt for a lot of soldiers. But still many of them were great fellows.